Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Mike McCabe, Newark Ohio — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 04:29:55 GMT

The following sentences below are from above as the should read for clarity:

"The ruling Communist Party requires all religious organizations to register with the state, giving THE STATE broad latitude in running the church. BECAUSE OF this..."

While the registerd churches are given some freedom, the government interferes with their affairs quite often, and therefore many refuse to have anything to do with them, and so they form their own house churches.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Teresa Wallin, West Liberty, KY — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 09:30:35 GMT

I am so happy to know that Christianity exists and is growing in China. Good Christians make good citizens. Global issues of human rights, environment, ... It all starts with loving neighbors. Isn't that what Jesus taught? It's a small start--keep it going China!

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

john, Fairfield, PA — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 10:50:04 GMT

Ya, china is a great place, making lots of industrial and technological improvements, blahblah ... want to know where they are getting their technology from?

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/4956/chinaxn8.jpg

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Joan, Madison, WI — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:22:10 GMT

I think it's wonderful that the president is going to a church in China. Having just returned from China and going to a government church, I can testify to the hunger that people have for God in China.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Steven F. Durst — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:24:31 GMT

Christ offers hope to any and all who come to him. Christianity is not a western monopoly and in all parts of the globe are the evidence of it. Even Pharoah obeyed the comands of God. I am glad to see the work done by so many early evangelist's bore fruit. American churches should learn a lesson from these Chinese brothers and sisters.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Serge,Durban, South Africa — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:59:37 GMT

It's a very interesting moment for all of us, christians who believe the true message of Christ.
Everybody will hear the gospel no matter the Chinese Government's conception of christianity!

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Freedom to choose — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 12:12:52 GMT

Many Chinese are very offended by Bush's visit to church and lecturing Chinese on religious matter in China, because Chinese have always had their own religion. Confucious and Taoism! How arrogant and dare you push your religion down to my throat! Freedom of religion also means freedom to choose my own religion and not to be pushed to yours!

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

marilee garcia, san antonio,tx — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 12:46:14 GMT

no government, no maatter how oppressive, can stand
against God. Not since Christ's time on earth has
faith in god been destroyed. it is the holy spirit
within us. the body may die, may imprisoned, may be
tortured but His love endures all things, generation
by generation.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Sue Linn — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:04:09 GMT

Editorially, it seems 'parishioner' is not the word for people of a Protestant church. It is repetitively used this way in news articles. A 'congregant' or 'congregants' would be accurate in this context, wouldn't it?

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

j bjune Greenville SC — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:17:33 GMT

No church or religion should be state sanctioned or controlled. China, being a communist country, they deem this their responsibility. Everyone should worship freely without government intrusion.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Emma Dwyer, Lincoln Park, MI — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:19:39 GMT

We Christians are so blessed here in the United States. Let us all join together and pray for our persecuted brothers and sisters in Christ who live not only in China but in other countries where there is suppression of religious freedom, that they may continue to fight the good fight of faith

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Cheryl, Atlanta, GA — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:23:15 GMT

Chinese Christians have worshipped in homes for years...out of necessity and desire. Thank god that Christianity is growing there. Only Christ can satisfy and those in deep need soon discover this truth. Christianity is certainly not confined to the West, Christ died for all.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Doug Berg, Greenville, NY — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:35:21 GMT

Christians in China live with persecution, abuse, harassment, arrest, beatings, torture and imprisonment. Attending a church which is not state sponsored is a crime. Attending even informal meetings for prayer, fellowship or Bible study, is a crime. Owning an “unregistered” copy of the Bible is a crime.

Although the Chinese government allows a limited number of Bibles for their own “authorized” churches each year, the severe Bible shortage continues to worsen as the number of believers grows by the thousands each day. According to the Bible League, an estimated 60 to 100 million believers belong to the Christian church in China. Nearly half -- 30 to 50 million Christians -- do not own a copy of the Scriptures.

If it were possible to legally, or “illegally” (according to present government standards), print and distribute one million copies annually, it would take 30 to 50 years just to supply the present estimated number of Christians with Bibles. At the same rate of distribution, In order to allow the rest of the population of 1.3 billion, an opportunity to own and read a Bible, it would require 1,000 years! I really think the Chinese government should lighten up.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Nancy Clarksburg WV — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:35:52 GMT

The president just wants to go to church while he's in China. And as for "pushing" something on anyone, all he's addressing is HUMAN RIGHTS...the very thing you're complaining about FREEDOM TO CHOOSE. The president just talked about rights of a human being to worship God as they choose...not "who or what" to worship, just the freedom as a human to do so.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Sierra, LA — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:44:14 GMT

Oh goodness, people are so silly. Instead of trying to convert people to a religion (are you guys THAT desperate?), why don't you spend time worrying about poverty, cruelty to animals etc?

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Alex, Columbus, OH — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:45:03 GMT

Great, lets introduce the most populace country on earth to a state-run religion. Who knows what "God" will tell them to do next.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Jeff, Indianapolis, IN — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:45:09 GMT

"Freedom to choose" wrote:
...Freedom of religion also means freedom to choose my own religion and not to be pushed to yours!...
How is Bush pushing you? He is a devout Christian and is going to church. Location does not matter, just as I find a church to attend while away from home. Your "freedom of religion" seems to fail to give freedoms to Christians?!? The main tenant of Christianity is to SHARE the gospel message. You are VERY FREE to ignore it.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Mindy, ATL,GA — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:58:33 GMT

I grew up in a small town in China. The neighbour behind us had a house church at their place for probably over 15 years. They had at least 250 people on Sundays to workship. My grandmother and aunt were the memebers of that church. They now have a big real church. It can host more than 500 people. I have never seen or heard any government agencies cracking down that house church or arresting church memeber when I was in China. I moved to U.S. 7 years ago. I visited my hometown recently. The church were still there serving people. The pastor's daughter were my classmate from elementary school to middle school. We still talk to each other. Just my 2 cetns. Again, ask youself lots of questions, and if you can go to China to find out yourself.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Joesph Lawrence, Hutchinson, Kansas — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:05:00 GMT

Wow, Christianity is so awesome!
Millions of Native Americans killed, cause they were "savages" and wouldn't convert.
Oh lets look the other way while millions of jews were being slaughtered during WWII.
Hey lets kill a doctor, because he preforms abortions.

Wanna talk about people being tortured because they are christians ? How about we talk about people getting tortured BY CHRISTIANS because they are not!

True message of christ? Do you get his message? Do you? or is it your pastor's version of it?

Remember, BABYLON THE GREAT in REVELATION is AMERICA.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Mindy, ATL,GA — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:06:07 GMT

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Mike P.,Salt Lake City, Utah — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:12:05 GMT

Bush doesn't walk into a church to tell those people how to worship...are you nuts? He goes there to be among should be supporters of the idea that he is sending to the rest of the world (as is his job), and that is that all men/women should be allowed to worship the god of their choice as they see fit...if it be their will. It is probably your own hatred for Bush and religion that offends you, and that is why you misunderstand Bush's message. Good luck China, and the rest of the world for that matter.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Das — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:13:47 GMT

How tragic! Once a great civilization with a long history of Taoism and Buddhism is now going down the drain with communism first and now christianity! When will the chinese people wake up and smell the coffee, before it's too late? I truly hope the Chinese do something about sending those evangelists disguised as 'English teachers' packing before the virus destroys the purity and inner harmony of this ancient society. GOD HELP!

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Mike D., East Falmouth, Mass. — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:14:56 GMT

All Bush is doing is going to worship. He isn't creating a church, religion, or congregation. He's going to a place of worship that already exists. He's not trying to convince anyone that he is right and they are wrong regarding faith, worship, etc.

I guess if you are trying to find something to criticize someone you dislike for, and your desperate enough for material, anything will do. But your desperation shows!

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

cappidad, Jacksonville, FL — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:17:44 GMT

I started to write my own comments regarding those by "Freedom to choose" but then just noticed that "Jeff" had already written essentially what what was going through my mind. As Christians, we believe in spreading the Gospel, but I don't know anyone trying to cram it down anyone else's throat, including the Chinese It's encouraging to read of the growth of Christianity in China, in spite of the government. "Freedom", suggest you spend a little time working at a better understanding of the Christian faith.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Paul Johnson, Houston, Texas — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:35:58 GMT

Mr/Ms 'Freedom-to-choose': I hope that someday you are allowed to openly freely practice whichever religion you choose in China. Mr Bush is trying to practice his personal beliefs while visiting that state-dominated congregation. His lecture to the Chinese govt is an attempt to bring them into the mainstream of the rest of the world, by protecting church from state.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Nickie, Michigan — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:42:02 GMT

Amen! Jeff

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Jolene, Seattle, WA — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:50:15 GMT

You have to commend China for making an effort not too look bad during the Bejing Olympics. They are a proud people but offend easily as noted by those who came wearing "polution masks". China's govenrnment were very offended by their actions, however they brought a point home none the less. It will be good for their environment to have people from all over the world come to their country. An eye opener for all. Biblically speaking..." every eye shall see and every ear shall hear..."

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

dorina ,garden grove,ca — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:14:42 GMT

Yes,people of God are so desperate to bring the word of the True GOD to the entire wold, the message of Jesus that he is the only way to Haven because He is the only One that payed such enormous price. He is alive now and He loves the people of China ( He created so many). It is true also that in times of persecution people turn to God more than in times of freedom, look how in the free world people choose not to worship our dear Lord or they have a fals religion.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

MMM, Florida — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:22:00 GMT

Sierra, LA wrote: Oh goodness, people are so silly...

Poverty and cruelty among the many ills of this world are simply a byproduct of the sinful nature of mankind. Yes, we should reach out to those, but our purpose is to serve the one true God (the God of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ). He says in His word that if we lift up Jesus (in other words point people to Him and reflect Him through our lives), He will draw people to Himself. We are not desperate, just excited to share the great and free treasure that we have found in knowing Him and being adopted into His family. It is a world wide family and when He is finished adding to it, He will return and complete His plan. Everyone is given the opportunity to know this and the free will to accept or reject it. Poverty and cruelty is sad, but so much more sad is a lost soul for all of eternity. If these things are hard to understand, God says all you need to do is ask Him with sincerity to give you wisdom and He will do it. God says He wishes that none should perish, but He has also let us make the final decision. I hope (and just prayed) that you can be found by Him that you would live to tell others. God bless you.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

sheila harris tucson, az, — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:28:17 GMT

"freedom to choose", you should do your homework, the chinese worshipped jehovah GOD long before confucious and taoism even existed!

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

T in Cal, PA — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:42:24 GMT

"Freedom to Choose" wrote:
"Many Chinese are very offended by Bush's visit to church and lecturing Chinese on religious matter in China, because Chinese have always had their own religion. Confucious and Taoism! How arrogant and dare you push your religion down to my throat! Freedom of religion also means freedom to choose my own religion and not to be pushed to yours! "

I apologize for a long comment but the buzz phrases of an ongoing prejudice towards faith based world views needs to be addressed.

The Chinese government took away the Chinese people's right to traditionally Chinese religions as well. Bush speaking in favor of freedom of religion is not "pushing" his "religion down "your "throat." Neither is his attendance in Church. But prohibiting the free exercise of religion and keeping any religious world view out of the public forum IS pushing the philosophy of secular humanism down everyone's throat.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Andrea, Hackensack, NJ — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:45:09 GMT

As an open-minded agnostic, I'm just glad to see any repressive government allowing a greater measure of freedom to individuals to exercise their personal religious beliefs. A high percentage of people around the world draw strength and comfort from their religious practices, and I'm always glad to see that door opened to more people. Like sports and the performing arts, religion can be a cross-cultural common grounds for, and I'm for anything (beneficial!)that gives people more in common.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Williamson, WV — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:50:00 GMT

Sierra, LA may need to read the Bible to find what it teaches about "poverty, cruelty to animals, etc." The Bible states that "the righteous man cares for the needs of his animals, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel." And no, we aren't that desperate, just wanting to share hope with the world. It's a choice that is given, not forced.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Connie Mally, Darien, IL — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:09:55 GMT

For all the criticism President Bush receives, its time to reflect on the decency and bravery he possesses! He is carrying out his religious convictions and is showing all how to do the same. After all, the USA WAS founded on Christian principles even though a lot of people deny this. Look at what our country has accomplished by following the principles of the Ten Commandments and teachings of Jesus! === Unfortunately, the thinking these days in the USA for probably half the population is that GOD is a myth and not needed. Yes, people have the right to choose this kind of thinking. But, when the chips are down, WHY does God get all the blame? Think!

Since Christianity is detected to be spreading in China, it seems some people there have decided that their life situations there are bearable with the help of Jesus! So, I guess his teachings are a lie?
CMM, Darien, IL

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Kathleen, Overland Park, KS — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:16:26 GMT

It's troubling to me, and to millions of other people across the world who believe in God and a path to the Divine through the religious paths of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Unitarian Universalist, and on and on....that the use of the word God in this article and by Christian commenters is reserved for Christianity alone. This kind of religious exclusivity and arrogance that assumes that billions of the world's population are wrong in their beliefs and doomed to hell, are a major cause of centureis of war and oppression. I agree that Christians make good citizens, that is, TOLERANT, open-minded Christians. Freedom OF religion indeed.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Thomas Manke, Owosso, Michigan — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:17:56 GMT

I wonder if Mr Obama, a professing Christian, was president, would he have gone to church in China or feel it was politically inappropriate?

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Horseman, Charlotte, NC — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:18:53 GMT

The substantive questions are the following:
1. Where do the pastors of the sanctioned Chinese churches get their theological education?
2. How much of their preaching of the Epistles and the Gospels is regulated or downright censored?
3. Do the congregants and parishioners of these sanctioned churches read from unabridged, unedited, uncensored versions of the KJV, NIV or NAB Bibles?
4. Do the parishioners of the sanctioned Latin Church read and learn from an unabridged, unedited, uncensored version of the Catechism?
Depending upon the answers to any and all of these questions, the truth of 'freedom of religion' in Communist China will be revealed.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Mike Acuff, Columbia, Missouri — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:32:28 GMT

There is so much misunderstanding. I was in Beijing in June and talking with my tour guide, she was suprized to learn that Christianty was not a western religion but had its origin from the Middle East and the "average Christian" is not a westener with white skin but a person with dark skin from the east not able to speak english!

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

robertm — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:43:41 GMT

freedom of choice is the way for all people,no matter what religion they want to believe in and what takes them through lifes journeys for a better life and citizen of there country no matter where.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

James Basil Dickinson — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:51:13 GMT

In order to have a expirence in the grace of God, we must worship according to the dictation of the Spirit Of God. Not some state run program! Christian, simply means Christ is born inside of us when we expirence the new birth. No new creature,no new creation. No new creature, no real salvation, the person is still sheilding the flesh,(which must die)if we are to recieve that resurction to a new life in Christ Jesus. Christ our Lord Said it well,"Except a kernal of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone, but if it die, it will bring forth much fruit." We must be as He was, He did not avoid confrontation with those in athority, He offered no acusations, and no defense. we are not to consider these things either as we obey our Father in Heaven, Jesus didn't and we are not to either. It is not us who speak, but the Holy Spirit of God that dwells in us. I realize that it is easy to say these things here in the good old USA, where it costs us very little to serve God, but we pay the same price as others only in a diffrent way. We say these things to an unresponsive cleargy, and church members, who are worldy minded. People respond to their religous nature but doing that will never save them, We must be born again, it is the new birth or hell. Sin shall never enter there, you will be saved from your sins or yuo will not enter with the saints of God.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Tunde Eseyin — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 17:41:22 GMT

God bless President Bush for not being ashamed of Christ at this spiritually unpopular time.I pray he will make it that day.I pray that other Christian world leaders who are fast losing their stand for HIM who bled and died will wake up too.together we will rejoice with the saints over their after the rapture.Now I believe that George Bush is a Christian indeed by this act and his unflinching support for the nation where the Lord comes from.I long to shake his hands over there that day in Jesus name.Amen

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Jon, Cincinnati, OH — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 17:41:29 GMT

China's got a very thin veneer of "tolerance" that it likes to show the western world. But underneath it is a brutality and disregard for individual humanity outside the elite that would shock most people.

People sent away for crimes they didn't commit but happened to look similar to the description given. Prisoners killed in death buses only to have their organs harvested and sold on the world's black market. And so on.

The sad thing is that the US (myself included) funds this by buying cheaply made products made by impoverished men, women, and children all over China. Often these people work far from home and sleep in dormitory rooms at the factory not much bigger than a bathroom without even a mattress on the floor.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Debbie, Memphis, TN — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:01:39 GMT

Sierra & Freedom to Choose--This story highlights the human rights struggles that exist for millions of Chinese. No one is trying to convert anyone or push any particular religion, but merely expressing the desire for people to be free to choose. The Chinese have not always had their own religion as stated. The Chinese government has always dictated religion to its citizens. BIG DIFFERENCE. Although this country was founded on Christianity, how fotunate we are to live in a country where we are free to follow any religious doctorine or none at all. In addition, we also have the right to let our voice be heard on other issues including poverty, animal rights, etc. How silly it is to promote the rights of animals over the rights of human beings. I'm sure many Chinese would be glad to trade places with you.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Matthew Harris — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:43:38 GMT

As Religions grow they become corrupt, unfortunately that's just the human condition, it begins spiritually but then the material needs overtakes the spiritual need and corruption blossoms. And there are an awful lot of people in China and the world at large, corruption is rife.

I'll try not to be offensive when I say this but Religion is a joke with no hopes of helping humanity, it is time we realised this and cast off its shackles, just think of how many wars would not be fought - religion is an excuse, without it they couldn't be fought without a damn good reason.

Since I'm only familiar with Christianity to a good degree I'll use that as an example. Christianity is inherently flawed as even if God (a Perfect Being apparently) had granted visions and knowledge to it's founders, Humanity (imperfect) can only interpret it to the best of Man's ability thus the actual meaning is lost and can be twisted by Man's perception. Think of all the atrocities committed in God's name, you cannot tell me that sanctioned murder is a good aspect of a religion. If God exists, I doubt a few murmerings of a few billion people out of the endless cosmos is going to affect God at all, so why subject yourself to it's false promises.

Humanity shapes its own destiny and is more deserved of praise then any idol of worship.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Carrie, Rome, NY — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:53:01 GMT

For those of you who are concerned for the safety of Chinese Christians who are being persecuted for following the Lord, the Voice of the Martyrs website would be a good place to learn what to do to help. Persecution of Christians is rampant in this day and age. More Christians are being killed now than any other time in history. People are beaten, raped, set on fire, and have their arms and legs hacked off, and yes, this does happen to children. Parishioners are forced into churches, the doors are locked, and the churches are set on fire. We are going to see more and more of this as the end times draw near and wickedness becomes more and more widespread. It's coming here to America, too. Little by little we are losing our rights. Every born again Christian should ask themselves if they are willing to die for the Lord. We are not evangelizing, and especially, not reaching children for the Lord. Most churches cater to the adults who pay the tithes and there is little for children. May God help us if the homosexual agenda destroys the family, and if millions go to hell because of the depravity we here in the Church are falling into. We need revival so we can have strength to stand up against the onslaught of the devil, because right now we have a false sense of security. The bubble will burst soon. Will you be ready?

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Scott Haines, Nevada — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:56:37 GMT

Religion of any kind is evil. Missionaries, supposedly "taking the gospel to heathens" have trashed cultures and civilations for hundreds of years. Example: Native American culture was ruined by these thugs on their march through America, all done in the name of God. Leave the world alone, you so-called Godly people.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

VT, Las Vegas, NV — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:16:56 GMT

Thank you for writing this article, MSNBC

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Hugh R. Bruce, Brooklyn, NY — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:19:55 GMT

I certainly hope that Pres. Bush undergoes a spiritual awakening during his visit to a state sanctioned Church in Beijing. His own Church (United Methodist) condemmned his war on the people of Iraq way back in 2003.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

aaron — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:21:14 GMT

These state sponsored "Christian" Chinese churches are a joke. Don't believe it for a second. Do your research on them - they aren't allowed to talk about many of the very basic foundations of the Christian faith. It's just another attempt by the Chinese govt to present a whitewashed public image to the world - just like Tibet, their support of Sudan, their oppression of political dissidents, etc. In this day of free flowing information it's amazing that countries like China, Iran, North Korea, and Myanmaar can do what they do - they are now the tragic laughingstock of the free world.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

lyn, campbell, CA — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:41:57 GMT

Truth is Truth and God's Truth will prevail in spite of any government or person or belief system no matter how religious or non religious they may be. This has been proven in China whether through the government sanctioned churches or illegal ones. Pastors might be imprisoned but the church in China has grown.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Rufus, Madison, AL — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:49:24 GMT

Jesus Christ is Lord. The holy scriptures teach that every knee shall bow before Him and proclaim Him Lord. Everyone includes us all whether we be Christian, Moslem, athest, or orher faith.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

TL — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:58:58 GMT

Obama occasionally speaks politics from pulpits. And his minions continually oppress freedoms of education, media, etc. How different can this be from a state sponsored church in China? Sounds good enough to vote into the next US President heh?

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

not stupid, Seattle area — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:10:26 GMT

Might just as well - you DO remember that "Religion is the opiate of the people"? Might not do any "good" but probably won't do any "harm" either

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Dan Householder, LA, CA — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:49:42 GMT

Interesting article. I would love to see an article from a house Church pastor who is in a position to speak freely!

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Stitzelfritz, Sewell NJ — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:17:16 GMT

To the poster who mentioned Taoism and Confucism:

While I agree that those religions have existed in China for years, we as Americans don't dictate that those who study those particular religions do so in hiding, simply because the USA has always been a "Christian" nation. You are missing the point, which is simple: Bush wants to go a church that reflects his religion of choice, just as anyone that comes here is free to do. What is there to get mad about?

Freedom of religion here is as vital as freedom of speech, or the freedom to protest. China's government doesn't provide those, either, yet we are so focused on the trees that no one sees the forest. Human Rights encompasses many things, and if someone is going to go and speak out about it... why not the President?

And for the other poster that addressed poverty, etc. Every single one of us is fully capable of helping to ease those problems. Find your local chapter of the Red Cross, or Samaritan's Purse, or the Salvation Army. One person makes a small difference, and a million small differences can be world-changing.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Free to choose — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:19:06 GMT

To Jeff of Indianapolis, IN:
How about Chinese president come to America and lecture or demonstrate to American people about attending muslim mosks or Buddhist temples?

You like Christianity and love going to church? Great! But keep it to your self and I don't want to hear about it. That's real freedom. Freedom not to be bothered by your religion.

It reminds me my neighbour in US who often plays extremely laud music that can be heard mile away. He only thinks he has right to play the laud music, but never mind about other people's right not to be bothered by his loud music.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Free to choose — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:27:55 GMT

To Nancy Clarksburg, WV:
If he is not promoting his religion in China, then why did not he go to a mosk or temple while in Beijing?

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Ray — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:37:46 GMT

If you were born in Pakistan, you wouldn't be believing in Jesus Christ right now. You would be believing in Mohamed. You would be told a totally different fairy tale when you were a child.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Ginger, Portland — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:51:59 GMT

The state sponsored church in China is tightly controlled by CHINA. The pastors are not free to say what they want, or to just teach from the Bible.

The house churches are an attempt to be free and follow the Bible only. The situation is similar to Catholic vs. Protestant in the early days, when the Pope cracked down hard on all dissent.

There are probably as many different (Christian) beliefs in China now as there are in America, unfortunately. It is so hard to maintain unity.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Charlene Doherty — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 22:18:25 GMT

I worry about using the state run church to initiate a another "flowering" wherein they systematicall rounded up all the believers who had thought they were free to worship, and threw them in work camps, jails and subjected them to torture.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Titus, Seattle WA — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 23:26:06 GMT

Neither Bush nor God "push faith to your thorat" . The Good News does the job and people respond to it in millions. Who would imagine there would be hundreds of millions Christians in communist China despite all the problems mentioned.Stop whining about human right, animal right..etc..think right and consider the Good News.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Bob Towe — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 01:08:13 GMT

Look I dont know how many people realize this but not so very long ago you could have been killed for pracicing almost any religion there there is forward movement accept it changes comes very slow to china ,but it does indeed come eventually.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Ronald D. Ginther, Puyallup, Washington — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 01:29:00 GMT

I am so impressed by the thoughtful, knowledgeable responses of the Christians who have written here!
China's problems are very well understood, I see. Perhaps, our own are too! We too struggle against
an overbearing elitist and secularist
group in government and in most institutions--so I can identify with the Chinese Christians, though
we Americans aren't yet beaten and thrown into prison for
worshipping God in a house church or unregistered church. It is most encouraging, as I live in a very corrupt, decadent, and cynical "blue state" which is so demeaning in attitude and policy to Christians that I sometimes think we are
a tiny island in a vast, hostile, liberal sea. But these responses show that we are not alone!

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Skin deep freedom — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 03:06:35 GMT

Alert! Freedom of speech was violated here! Pro Christan comments were posted, but pro non-Christan religion comments were deleted!

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Don Kelly — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 03:47:36 GMT

I read a few of the writings herein. They are all earnest in their thinkings but, at times one has to separate the good religious people from the bad. Yes, I know the "devil made (whomever) do it." Christianity has not been that glamorous over the centures although there is always good people who make things happen the way that they should. In fact over the centuries if one was not this Christian or that Christian they were persecuted. China is an athesist country and it is hard to go for a job of any management experience if saying "I am Catholic," or any other religion. Same in America the turn of the century if one said they were Irish-Catholic. It just didn't work to admit this or similar things. Saying I was "Jewish" was even harder. The people in control early on were English. Did they like Catholics, Irish Catholics, Jews, etc" NO NO NO!
Did you know that the Irish were called the "Niggers" of Europe? Did you know that the Irish "rooted" for Hitler not because of him but, in that somebody (Hitler) was helping the Irish to get even. My Father from Ireland (and Mother) during WWII would listen to Hitler's speecjes not knowing a word of German. He liked the guy because he was bombing, etc., the English.
Did you know that only about fifty years ago when that "guy" came into power in China and the other "guy" went to Taiwan the "guy" who took over the control in China MURDERED over 50 to 70 million people for reasons that you already know or should know.
In the this writing will not be publ;ished by you I would suggest that you read the Washinton Post and read it in the publication.
There is a lot more and your readers and writers ar to narrow and dumb about what they are saying.There are things that I can't even tell you but, I have been dealing with China for over twenty years directly and indirectly. I know what "fools gold" is and if you want to be fooled over small things that will always remain small then, keep your eye on the ball and not things that presently in China are meaningless. Not the people but, the Communist Government. At least in America those two guys "hitting" it out for the "top" government job really don't say anything but, they both make people at times "feel good." Did you ever take "feel good" to the bank to make a deposit with it? Good luck (emphasis added).
www.mbfusa.com

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Xin Zhao, Singapore — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 03:50:15 GMT

I'm Chinese and I'm not offended by the President going to church...I personally prefer going to a McDonald's than eating Kung Pao chicken. Now that's freedom to choose...

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Don Kelly — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 03:53:25 GMT

I knew that in that you want to please everybody both Communists and those living in a Democracy to that you like the two WH Candidates are afraid to say anything that could be in any way instrumental in having one think for themselves and this make this column and your management no different that, yes, thos in China with whom you and your readers and me disagree. The sole reason that as in politics you slant into the middle of the road for safety reasons and one being you don't want to injure the feelings of anybody Chinese, for this time around.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

USA — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 04:15:19 GMT

Thank God I live in the United States.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Ed, Houston, TX — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 05:23:14 GMT

why is a person "desparate" if he's sharing his beliefs? Would you say a Taosit was desperate if he explained his beliefs?

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

John Vigren, Hope, NJ — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:20:33 GMT

The state-run TSM church featured in this article does not teach God but the state. It is illegal to worship or even talk about Christ in China. Chinese believers pay a stiff price for gathering to pray together -- prison, joblessness and death. They were not converted by Western missionaries (barred from China since 1949) but by illegal Chinese Christians.

Despite (or because of) this persecution, China has the fastest growing Christian population in the world, presently numbering about 100 million. The TSM church is tiny by comparison, and usually poorly attended. It offers nothing but the state's favor.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Free to choose — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:46:10 GMT

To Sheila Harris of Tusan, AZ:

You really need some home works about China. What ever Chinese may or may not worshiped before Confucious and Tao, they did not last long. None even know them. Instead, Confucious and Taoism have been deeply and widely spread in China for two thousand years and they are the key guiding principals for Chinese society!

Why you can not accept other people having their own religion?

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Free to choose — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:50:54 GMT

To Mike P. of Salt Lake City, UT:
I am neither a Bush hater nor a religion hater. I'm just simply telling you that I got my own religion and I am not interested in yours. Period.

Why you got upset about other people having their own religion? I won't give a dam about what ever other people worship!

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Free to choose — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 19:37:50 GMT

To all who have responded to or about to respond to "Freedom to Choose":

It's SO, SO amusing to see so many of you got so upset about other people having their own religions and particularly having one that is Not same as yours! So many of you immediately jumped out to discredit or disregard other religions even though other religions had been around for thousands years and influenced billion people!

So many of you jumped out to zap the thought of having a different religion through various clever and not-so-clever arguments. It almost feels like a modern day "Inquisition".

Read all postings by "Free to choose". None is trashing or bashing other religions. Also read all RESPONSES to "Free to Choose", full of trashing, bashing, lecturing of people who has different religion. What a different!

While I totally agree that it's natural for a Christan including Bush to visit a church where ever he/she maybe, as a head of a largely Christan state, I will be REALLY impressed if he goes to a mosk or a temple while in Beijing. That will be TRUE freedom. (Beijing does have plenty of such places.)

Thanks for the great theater and amusing acts. God bless all, no matter what you worship.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

B in Cal, Pa — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:57:44 GMT

There seems to be a great deal of confusion and misinformation about the ‘evil’ of religion and Christianity in particular. To give you comfort - Christianity is not a Western religion; it is supercultural and expressed in very different ways the world around. If there is a God, HE would be supercultural and should be available to everyone - so if any religion mentioned claims any kind of universal reality then inhibiting its exposure to people is a violation of the religious freedom of those recipient people. And so far, I did not mention the religious freedom of a practicioner to respectfully share their beliefs - which is violently denied in many places all over the world - and the practioner of course may exercise an even greater right - to suffer or even die for the sake of the people they are talking to and for the sake of the God they have faith in. And in fact they do - and they often suffer greatly. Sudan has killed over 2 million Christians in the last 20 years, China supports that regime which is no great surprise as they have violently oppressed many of their own citizens as has Myanmar, Laos, Iran, North Korea and the list goes on. Part of the reason for this oppression is that the governments obtained their power through the fervent adoption of whatever particular brand of humanist ideology by masses of people. They maintain their power through autocratic beuracracy. So any freedom or mass movement is seen as a threat - even if it involves the original ideology. Man turns into a horribly oppressive god.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

B in Cal, PA — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 16:15:21 GMT

BTW the secular humanist wars of the 20th Century killed considerably more people (by percentage as well as raw numbers) than the combined religuous wars and inquisitions of the rest of history combined. In fact this comparison probably does not include the non-war time pogroms of humanism. And it should be noted that any particular religion should not be branded the same as the collective behavior of religious power. This applies, as well, to the God or gods that the religion claims to represent (people abuse the Name of God). Nor should any faith be judged by some power exercising the quasi-secular usurpation of the name and resources of a religion or religious organization - as happened in the Inquisition.
People have been trained with humanist's mantras such as 'don't shove your religion down my throat' or 'all religions are basically the same' or ‘the American Indian was annihilated in the name of Chistianity’ (the evil against the American Indian was fueled by greed and ethnocentrism far more than it was by religion). Peopl also get confused to think that 'freedom of religion' means freedom FROM religion. But all of this compares to the cult like practices of programming cult adherents to react to buzz words that they might encounter. Much of what has been attributed to Christianity is really just human greed, evil or the corruption that comes with concentrating wealth or power in any ideology or religion. And so far humanist ideology has shown itself to be far more bloody than religious ideology. I don’t espouse any religion so to speak, even Christianity – I want to speak of God – not an institution – but even so, Christianity that gets blamed for so much evil, even when it is corrupted by wealth and power seekers who seek positions of power, has been less bloody and regarded human life higher than most if not all other religions. This is meant to be a socio-historical statement not a theological statement. There is a kind of anti-Western, anti-Christianity angst based in attitude and not actual history that is very popular today. The heirs of the West and current Christians should no doubt be sympathetic for the evil done by evil people but the evil would have been done anyway – power and wealth seekers who happen to have no morals would seek out power and wealth blocks and exploit them regardless. They did not have power because of religion – they took power from religion because that was where they could take it.
A prominent ex. is the East & West India Tea Companies - back home in England they would speak of Christianizing the Heathen but in India the common testimony of missionaries was that they oppressed the Indians and did everything they could to resist the missionaries. Why? If the Indians became Christians the trade giants would have had to treat them as humans. India was oppressed by colonialism NOT missionaries - it was the missionaries who rescued Indian children from temple slavery (prostitution) and from the trade companies themselves.
Another Ex. was that it was the Christians who worked to end slavery in the British Empire - while the colonial trading companies bought parliament to prevent them.
Or the Christians who organized and marched in the American Civil Rights movement.
Or Christianity the influenced Ghandi to take on the caste system.
Or Missionaries who introduced the idea of hospitals for the population (instead of just for Royalty) in every continent.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Kelly, NY, NY — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:19:26 GMT

I came from southern China,Canton. There is a church near where I lived. People go there to pray and the gov't never bothered them at all. Alot of people misunderstand that there is no freedom of religion in China and its not true. As long as you are not using religion as an excuse to form an organizion and against the gov't then you will be safe.

Exuberance at one of Beijing’s state-sponsored churches

Dave Mattozzi — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:53:45 GMT

God Bless the brave Chinese Christians