Thai dowries change with the times

Peter Noname, Ohio — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:01:37 GMT

I was told 2 weeks before my planned wedding to a Thai lady a few years ago that the cost was $50,000 USD. Her dad, who had a gambling problem as do many Thai men, needed the money for bills. The mother was a teacher, and needed a new car. I figured the rest left over was was for something less important.
I felt it was a way for the poor Thai famaily to make good, their daughter marry a foreigner, not for love, but for the money. Needless to say, there was no wedding. No dowry. I was told later by another Thai that that was the way of the "up country" girls, or little educated and poor. I hope the big dowrys will be a thing of the past, not for me, but for the next poor fool. I love the Thai culture and people, but that practice needs to change to fit into the rest of the world. If the rich stars of Thailand want to do that, that is their perogative. If the Thai's want their daughters to marry a foreigner, get rid of the old system of "paying" for the bride.

Thai dowries change with the times

MD, CC Colorado — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:12:13 GMT

They really should move into the modern ages and realize that women are not property, but people!!! How disgusting that we still have this going on in this day and age.

Thai dowries change with the times

jeffrey turkel — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:43:47 GMT

still sell there sons and daughters:(............

Thai dowries change with the times

John Doe, Seattle, wash — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:10:22 GMT

I love it. Great Sense of Humor.

Thai dowries change with the times

Bob Nugent — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:21:54 GMT

I am an American engaged to marry my Thai sweetheart in Thailand . I look forward to giving her family a dowry . They did not ask me for one but they are poor and this is my chance to show them I will take care of there Daughter .

Thai dowries change with the times

Holly, Carmichael, CA — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:23:13 GMT

How edifying! I didn't know any of this, and it was not only interesting but entertaining in its delivery. Thank you!

Thai dowries change with the times

Berkeley LookTung — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:56:55 GMT

Dowry, although the thing of the past has become a wedding tradition, much like a white wedding gown and ceremony. For a Thai living and born abroad, I know the system well and dislike the idea of it. But I understand that for Thai families, if you love the bride, you must also love her family. That means, you must be willing to do what ever it take to make the bride and her family happy.

Thai dowries change with the times

Jim, Seattle/Bangkok — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:31:52 GMT

Being from the US and living in Thailand for 4 years, I have seen this first hand. It seems like the higher social status of the family the more likely that the sin sod will be returned.

Many farang (western) men marry poor farm girls from the NE of Thailand. They are usually asked for a large sin sod and usually do not get any back. Many guys wind up paying thousands of dollars to marry a girl that has worked in bars as a prostitute. These women would have a hard time finding a Thai man to marry them after this type of employment and would find it even harder to find a Thai man that would pay a sin sod to marry a woman in this field of employment.

In the NE of the country alcoholism is widespread and most people are in debt beyond their ability to pay. So they are less likely to give the money back to the couple because it could be used for buying whisky, mobile phones and paying back money lenders.

Thai people, like many other Asian countries are very concerned with "face". If the neighbor got 100,000 Thai Baht for their daughter, then the next person would need to get more, otherwise they will lose face because their daughter would then be seen as being of lower value.

I know many Thai people that want to get married, but are prevented from getting married because they do not have the money that the bride's parents require for the sin sod. When the bride's parents are requesting such a large amount, it does the opposite of showing that the husband can provide for the wife. It puts them in a financial bind just to be able to get married, instead of them having that money to start their life together.

Thai dowries change with the times

Imam Zia — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:57:46 GMT

The dowry or "mahr" is also part of the Islamic religion, and it all belongs to the bride, the parents are not allowed to take any of it. But in some instances, the families do benefit. The amount of the dowry is reached through mutual agreement between bride and groom.

Thai dowries change with the times

John Doe, Seattle, Wash — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 01:19:38 GMT

Don't believe a word of it, men. My wife promised me her parents would give it right back and ten years later not a cent.

Thai dowries change with the times

Misbah Khatoon — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 02:20:41 GMT

Very interesting. I LIKE your Thai system. I wish my husband had paid my parents a million baht when we got married. That way husbands value you more too - since they paid good money to earn you!

Thai dowries change with the times

Chris,, Corpus Christi, texas — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 02:29:46 GMT

I am a Westerner married to a Thai woman. When this subject came up I told my future in-laws that it would look bad for their daughter in my country if it was known that I had payed a dowry. I suggested that I would pay for 2 trips for them to see their daughter and how much money that amounted to. Everyone was happy with this solution.

Thai dowries change with the times

Eric, Nong Khai, TH — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 02:54:08 GMT

I enjoyed this article. I didn't pay Sin Sod for my lovely Issan bride. :-) I expected to hear about it but none was requested. I have been to several Issan weddings and the bride price was always given back to the happy couple afterwards and it has nearly always been about 1 years salary. A big show of the bride price is made, mainly for face, but also to tease the broom as being cheap. I have heard horror stories about Sin Sod but have never seen it, and, they are stories after all.

Thai dowries change with the times

kazmi, New york — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 04:13:12 GMT

Though it is a custom of many countries to take or give Dowry, but look at those whow can not afford such tradition, their doughters pass there life in depression, anxiety. Is it better to keep it as a tradition to satisfy the cultural tradition and let these girls become good mothers, and raise healthy nation.

Thai dowries change with the times

Karen Herschell, Edmonton, AB — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 04:56:33 GMT

Just to be semantically correct, this is not a dowry, it is a bride price.

Thai dowries change with the times

Ray Trevino, Hermiston,Oregon — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 07:19:46 GMT

The dowry system is a good system, what is the bride is not a good mother (producer of children) what happens to the dowery then or can the husband get his money back.

Thai dowries change with the times

Kaweeka — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 07:33:21 GMT

Yet another Thai who things that all of Thailand revolves around what happens in Bangkok and its middle class.

If you are going to talk about the dowry system, why don't you do some reasearch, being a reporter and all, and try to understand how this systems is truly being exploited by unscrupulous families for their own gain. Research on how families raise their female children to be 'sold' to the highest bidder when they send them down from the country side to 'study' or 'work', when the real goal is for them to land themselve a nice rich (and probably way too old) farang that can be the equivalent of the winning lotto number.

So, Khun Warangkana, considering that you think you are worth more than a million bath (half joking, I know), spend some of that expensive education into something that is more than superficial writing about your nice upper class in Bangkok and their multi-million baht dowry's that are all returned back to their highly educated grooms, blah blah blah.

Talk about THAILAND, for once. Don't get confused with Bangkok's metro life and its disrgard for the rest of the country.

Thai dowries change with the times

Hamza — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 08:50:03 GMT

It's a disgusting concept I think

Thai dowries change with the times

Norman Bowe Khon Kean , Thailand — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 09:42:55 GMT

I just had to write about my experience. I meet a wonderful woman from Thailand and came to visit her as a friend in her home country and ended up getting a little more involved than I had planned. We ended up courting after I returned to american and realized I had left behind in Thailand a truly wonderful woman. On the long flight back to america all I could think about was this precious thing and her wonderful family. I had made up my mind long before landing that I just had to tell her I felt about her and wanted to return and Date and get married asap. With the help of the internet we discussed many things and one of the things I found most troubling was this exact thing we are discussing. I discussed with her my feelings and told her that in my country we have a rule about buying people. We once practiced this very same thing and it was called slavery. I understood the parents wanting to have something as a show of my word that I would take very good care of their daughter but purchasing another human being was not a option. If anything it would be a insult for me to offer anything less than the world for such a wonderful treasure. My parents had always taught me that the only thing worth anything we really own is (((our word))). Borrowing money or mortgaging our future for the right of marriage is in a way starting things off on the wrong foot. If love and (((your word)))has no place in the equation I think your shopping at all the wrong places. Needless to say we we married on Feb 14 2008 and my new Thai family accepts me for my word and not my money. So listen up all your foreign men, if your buying your bride in Thailand , shame on you, learn from my experience , if your feeling you need to buy your wife, please go where you came from and do your shopping somewhere else. Thailand is not a meat market and the woman are not for sale unless your word means nothing to you why should it to the Thai people

Peace and Love

Norman Bowe

Thai dowries change with the times

John Doe , Honolulu, HI — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 10:03:43 GMT

Thank you for your story, this last 8 months I had a wonderful experience when I asked a stewardess to join me as a tourist at the end of our flight to Honolulu, from Japan. She is wonderful and so are her other cabin attendant work partners from Bangkok.
We continue to spend time together when they come to Honolulu where I live. Being a transplant from California I had little experience with Thai culture/customs. I have dated and had relationships with many different women including, a Sicilian, Irish-Russian[beauty contestant- recipient of the Miss San Francisco Rose of Tralee], three hispanic chicas, four caucasians , Three american born chinese, but I must say Thai women especially these ladies I have met are the most polite, intellegent, courteous, kind, and warm hearted of all. They treat men with respect and grace thier side when together.

I am a American born Chinese man, for what it is worth I would pay sin sod because I believe that the cultural custom should be honored before all of our cultures meld together and become non distinguishable amoung the human race.

What makes you Thai and me not is your history and conditonal training. So I hope you who read this get the chance to meet a woman or man from Thailand and understand the customs that make Thailand the place that generates such balanced worldly people.

Thai dowries change with the times

Howard Schott, Nashville Tn. — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 11:56:22 GMT

Maybe this would be something to look at in the united states.With so many worthless men that dont work and cant seem to understand responsibility.Some thing like insurance for the parents of the bride.If the suitor can't come up with some form of dowrie,maybe he should not be considered a good provider and father.

Thai dowries change with the times

Steve (Sss-teve, in Thai..lolll), Commonwealth of Pennsylvania — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 13:29:05 GMT

This was fun to read...I haven't been to Thailand since I was stationed there in the '70s, but the link to the guide to marriage's rural village picture brought back many memories.

All of them good ones; if the people of any nation deserve the sobriquet of "The Nicest People on Earth!", the Thais do.

Thai dowries change with the times

Cal — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 15:32:05 GMT

I am one of those dumb founded westerners. I had found the right woman but she never told me of this system. I was quite surprised at the "mothers milk" fee. Granted the family was going to be generous to me as well. Even though I cannot "legally" own land where they had it I am not sure they knew that and even if they had I think the intention was honarable. Where my parents are deceased and the girl over 25 (niether of us married children) the mother had the discussion with me versus parent to parent. I may have be willing to entertain the thought but the family refused to disclose their debts and as the only male of the family I was told I would be expected to assume all liabilities as well as support the family. I just could not do it. Not knowing the total extend of what I was getting into and remembering how my mother who had no dowery was required to work for her in-laws for 5 long years due to her short comings. I am lucky I suppose my fathers generation who did not expect a dowery and change will come to other places as well. I must admit though until Asian countries come up with mandatory child support laws I can see some value to the security of "mothers milk." Sadly since returning to the USA the girl has decided I never loved since I refused to send money. Off course no consideration is given for the fact I had made clear before I came that I was poor and all I offered was my love and since I own my home (no debt) in USA I would be able to care for her seemed to matter as I would not support the extended family. Note after exploring Thailand quite a bit the tradition seems more deep routed in certain area then all areas. Kind of like the doweries that still excist in the USA

Thai dowries change with the times

dingdongrb — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 16:21:54 GMT

I would like to know where you can buy a new Toyota Camry in Thailand for a million baht... Try almost three times that amount!

Thai dowries change with the times

Brett R. Frankfurt, Germany — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 16:22:42 GMT

It really is a buyers market there. Having lived there for 4 years it seems the more educated and successful a woman is, the less she is desired by thai men. And it seemed that relationships are quite different than in the west. Asian relationships don't seem to be so deep. It is more about performing a role. Though the divorce rate is lower than the west. In the west we seem to put so much emphasis on the relationship, maybe too much pressure that the divorce rate is over 50%.
I know I'm painting with a broad brush, I'm not saying one culture is better than the other. I think its interesting to note the different philosophies.

Thai dowries change with the times

Adam & Wichan Stanhope, Kingston, Massachusetts — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:38:17 GMT

My Thai wife and I were just kids - I was 21 and still in college - when we got married twenty years ago.

The meager dowry that was requested by her folks was symbolic-only and returned to us the day after the wedding.

I'd hate to think of the dowry as some sort of "fee" that is paid, after which the new married couple has no responsibility for supporting the bride's parents.

It has been far easier to help the family in the 20 years hence than it was to scrape up some dowry cash at the time of the wedding when I was still in school.

Thai dowries change with the times

Steve, Seattle, WA. — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:47:05 GMT

Older customs and traditions are a great thing to acknowledge as ceremony, but I wonder if these parents have ever arrived at the conclusion that selling a woman to a man is tantamount to prostitution. And what about their daughters happiness, is it considered at all?

Thai dowries change with the times

sandy maraven — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 18:36:04 GMT

I have been married to a thai , when we got married I just told my wife , instead of giving it to her greedy family , that she suported for years. we would just take money and give her daughters a good education in U.S . I felt the same way, she fell in love with me, and didnt care about the money. I know one family that gave a man 65 there daughter at 15 years old. because of the money, this to me is very discrasfull. when you marry someone ,it should not be all about the money, and that is how 60 percent of the marrigers are over there. old men just buying there wife instead of both really loving each other, and just using them for sex. this to me is not exceptable. to see someone 70years old with a thai women that should be his granddaughter. I love the thai people, and this really bothers me to see this when I lived there. and it really bothers the thai people to.

Thai dowries change with the times

Karl Klenke, Madison, WI — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 18:36:35 GMT

I like it. I wish we had it here. Way too many deadbeats running around. I am a man and I think the extra competition would be good for this country. Maybe the women would have a little more pride along with the men when choosing a mate.

Thai dowries change with the times

kevin taylor,,topeka,kansas — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 18:42:43 GMT

Shame on you Norman Bowe, lecturing men across the globe for buying a Thai bride. You are very naiive. and don't pretend to know anything just because you
married a Thai woman. Just consider yourself very
fortunate. I am married to one and I can assure you
the entire world is a "meat" market. How much would a woman like I have cost in america for example. Well after all the courtship costs of months, if not years, and then the wedding day and then the wedding ring, and on and on, it would be well over 32,000. american dollars, if you paid one million baht for a
Thai bride. (that is one example) so wise up before you start lecturing the world on Thai women. You were very very fortunate to "land" a Thai wife, so
just enjoy and save the rest of us from your naiive
lectures.

Thai dowries change with the times

Teddy Bear — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 18:59:25 GMT

Well the tradition exists here in the United States also though it is not look on as a dowry. In the United States it is customary for the bride's family to pay for the wedding at least that is what my girlfriend told me. So I guess I will be having all boys, lol. But that is the custom.

Thai dowries change with the times

Liz Nolte, Kansas City, Missouri — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:12:29 GMT

Very interesting.. In Malaysia, there's two types of dowry. One is for the bride's family to finance the wedding (which is the more expensive one) and the other is exclusively for the bride. Both are the responsiblities of the groom.

What is prevalent in Muslim countries in the Middle- East that a lot of Malaysian women are not aware of is the practice of pre-nups. Because wives have less rights than husbands do, parents of brides-to-be make the future grooms sign pr-nups to protect their daughter. It can range from providing a million dollar home to the bride in five years to a promise never to take a second wife. ( The father of a friend of mine made the groom promise that his wife will never have to cook or drive. He would provide her with a cook and a driver). The breach of this promise is ground for divorce and the return of the bride to her family with her properties intact. There's a good reason behind these traditions as long as you don't go overboard.

Thai dowries change with the times

Dr. Monica Bellas — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:33:15 GMT

As an anthropologist, I have to comment on this. As Karen Herschell pointed out, this is not dowry - it is what is known as bride wealth (we don't call it bride price any longer as that connotates purchasing the bride). I teach my students that bride wealth (in its most generic form) is the groom's family's way of compensating the bride's family for raising her. As bride wealth is found in patrilineal societies, where descent is traced through the father's line, bride wealth makes perfect sense. The bride and groom's children will "belong" to his family, and any labor the bride engages in will also "belong" to the groom. Thus, the bride's family is compensated for loss of access to her wealth and her children. (Keep in mind that her children will still have access to her side of the family; it's just that they don't "belong" to her family.)
Obviously this is a general description of bride wealth; each society changes to the practice to best serve their beliefs.

Thai dowries change with the times

anon — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:16:14 GMT

I work with a man and his wife both of whom are from Rwanda. He paid a bride price for her as well. Three cows.

Thai dowries change with the times

X, Merced, CA — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:37:29 GMT

When I married my husand 10 years ago, my parents asked for a bride price of $5,000. The money was used to help pay for the wedding and whatever was left was returned as a dowry. It's not as "ugly" as people make it to be. It's NOT buying or selling of a slave. I was NOT sold to my husband nor were my "services" being sold (otherwise he'd be "paying" far more than just $5000). Rather it was symbol of a promise to my parents (just as a ring was given to me on my wedding day) that he'd love and take care of me until death do us part, and that they'd never have to worry about my well-being. Some of the money along with other gifts worth far more than just $5000 was given as a dowry to us after the wedding to show that my parents accepted his promise to love and take care of me, and that they accepted him and would love them as their new son-in-law.

Thai dowries change with the times

Jun C, Bayside, NY — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:53:02 GMT

This dowry practice is actually very common across all Asia, not just in Thails. Even here in America, the practices still existed. When I and my sister got married here in the USA, I provided dowry to her parents (though my wife never got anything back) for my wife. My parents also received it from my now brother-in-law, but they got it all back during the wedding ceremony. Personally, I liked the tradition very well, it shows how much you respect for the women you love and a way of showing how much you mean the relationship.

Thai dowries change with the times

Kathryn Stewart-McDonald Alexandria Virginia — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:06:22 GMT

It is not a dowry, it is a definate bride price. I was 13 when my family was posted to Bangkok, Thailand with United States Department of State. As a Diplomat's Daughter I must have been worth some money, a young Buddhist monk who came to our gate every day once said he would have to beg a lifetime to marry me. "Sin Sod is very high at your house" he said. He was a very young boy. In Thailand almost every man in the country including The King spends time as a monk, in the case of this man his family might have been very ill - he possibly spent his time in the Wat at a younger age where he could receive an education as they recuperated. The Thai system is better than the USA where I paid for a Doctor's education, parents assisted with earnest money for house and I co signed the note for his practice only to divorce without recouping an equitable settlement on GUAM USA. The Moral is..... better to marry a humble monk with morals than a Doctor offering private practice to people living near a large military base. Guam Courts, by the way, have a practical solution to domestic problems, keep the wage earning man on island to marry a local girl and send wife packing. True Love is Hard to Find

Thai dowries change with the times

Andy - Phoenix — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:49:09 GMT

The dowry is an interesting concept; whether paid by the groom or the bride, it seems to be a way of offering something in exchange for the family's blessing. It's a good thing that in the United States that the likability factor is often enough to win the parents'-in law favor because considering the financial status of so many Americans right now, I think an American dowry system would mean quite a reduction in the number of marriages that occur these days!

Thai dowries change with the times

Ryan Iowa — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:00:56 GMT

You would never buy a car before you test drive it would you? Down with the Dowries. I mean what if she is bad in bed or cant bear childern. You just bought a busted woman....ick

Thai dowries change with the times

SM, Dallas, TX — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:30:32 GMT

To Norman Bowe,
Sir, you are right of course regarding the disgrace of buying and selling of human.. but one should be cognizant that cultural traditions such as these, while resulting in exploitation, when executed with the right intentions and values do play a part in society. The are a important method of connecting families from both sides together.

The values you espouse in your comments are valid, but given the 50% divorce rate in the US and other culturally western nations, are not sufficient for long term happiness. Cultural traditions such as Sin Sod do have a place, but have been warped due to greed or other low-minded factors.

Hope you are doing well.
Regards,
SM

Thai dowries change with the times

Mike Smith Portland, OR — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 00:10:59 GMT

I recently married a wonderful woman from Nongkhai and sin sod was an issue that was overcome by ensuring that her daughter would be loved and cared for the rest of her life, and that by taking me on as a part of their family I would contribute to the mother's well being for the rest of her life (as a good Thai son would do).

I also expressed my opinion that "buying" a person was done in our country during the times of slavery and that I wanted a wife, an equal partner, not a slave.

Her mother consented to a sin sod equal to the cost of the wedding which was returned to us to pay for the wedding. She was able to save face among the elders who still believe in this practice. She received a nice piece of jewelry as a wedding gift which she wears proudly as a reminder to those concerned that she received a sin sod from her son in law.

Thai dowries change with the times

anu bose, ottawa, Ontario, Canada — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 00:57:00 GMT

How absolutely disgusting-sellign and buying of human beings.

Thai dowries change with the times

Nat,maryesther,fl — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 01:39:50 GMT

I am Thai woman and I never heard about this story!!!

Thai dowries change with the times

Michael, Los Angeles — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 02:15:28 GMT

You can buy a Toyota from the United States and ship it oversea. It would cost you less money.

Thai dowries change with the times

Jobe, LA — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 02:16:54 GMT

This website has lot of information on Toyota.
http://www.bestusedcarsite.com

Thai dowries change with the times

Tom, Mansfield, CT — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 02:54:04 GMT

Approve of it or disapprove of it, women are far better off in bride-price cultures than they are in dowry ones. In bride-price cultures girl children have economic value and are therefore raised and provided for. You won't see a man who's spent $32,000 for the privilge to marry a woman setting her on fire so he can marry another woman and get another dowry, as sometimes happens in rural India.

Thai dowries change with the times

jim hillier, petersburg,va — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 02:58:30 GMT

Interesting
Does the same go for a gay man taking a thai man for his significant other?

Thai dowries change with the times

Gary Tarr , Chiang-Mai Thailand — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 03:36:34 GMT

The sentiments are certainly correct regarding Bride Price in the Bangkok Metro area . It has become a " keep up with Joneses " lottery for weddings . Having to hire hotel suites , catering for 250 hangers on . Dont think of less than 500,000 Bht and that is just for starters.
I married my lovely wife 10 years ago in Chiang-Mai . Dowry or Sin Sid was never asked for or offerred. Yes I have taken care of my wife's family ( Mother and sister ) but nothing more .
My wifes sister got married yesterday in the traditional 'Lanna Style " , a truly charming ceremony where the bride gives a small dowry in gold value about 25,000 Bt. The invited guests are treated to breakfast , lunch and dinner plus all the Samsung and Chang beer they want.The whole do was paid for by the guests themselves who leave an envelope of cash anything from 20 Baht to 1000, according to their means . This is how it works in good honest Northern Thai homes .
Yes their are unscrupulous families who send their daughters off to " work" in the bars of Pattaya , Phuket and Samui , and if we farang are stupid enough to be sucked in to the honey trap then all fool us .
This is not peculier just to Thailand

Thai dowries change with the times

Paul in Nakornratchasima — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 03:55:22 GMT

I am an American, have been in Thailand for 11 years, am married to a Thai and we have a 4 year old daughter.

We have lived in Isan (the northeast) for the past 6 years due to my employment being related to agricultural products (starch), but my wife is from the southeast coastal area, near Cambodia.

First, I believe dingdongrb can buy a brand new Camry for about 1.2 million baht, as they are produced in Thailand now. In the past they were imported from Australia and had a 100% excise tax due to the 2.2 liter engine size, and were about 2.5 million.

My wife had been previously married. The comments above about former prostitutes having a small chance of ever finding a respectable Thai who would marry them and pay a bride's price as well are optimistic.

There is no chance.

Likewise, my wife had no chance despite a failed marriage in which she had tried to do everything right.

We were both getting older and neither of us had any children, so we decided to marry and give it a whirl.

I paid a significant bride price and we had a lavish but traditional wedding by local standards to show respect for my wife, her family and her culture.

Half the bride-price was returned and the other half helped her parents with a life-long debt problem.

They always tried hard, just didn't succeed much.

There is a wide diversity in how this issue is handled by different families, as is reflected in the comments.

As for the old farangs seeking a wife younger than the kids they left backhome with the ex-wife, many probably get about what they deserve.

They hope to score a young woman based on the poverty of her family and are then shocked to find out that she married for money.

(The big rip-off is not usually the bride-price.

The big rip-off comes later, as farangs are not generally allowed to own land and are frequently persuaded to buy a house in the new wife's name.)

Birds of a feather flock together, and I doubt many of them (old farangs or young women) ever get what they expect.

There is no single rule followed by everybody on the bride-price.

What should probably be more controversial, however, is the expectation in Thailand that retirement begins at about 50 and children are expected to help support their parents until they die.

While there remains a bit of the tradition that this burden rests mostly on the eldest son who gets the preponderence of the inheritence in return, it is evolving into a system of all children being expected to help.

As an American, the government has taken over part of this responsibility, as have governments in most industrialized nations.

Thailand is going through the transition now from an agricultural society in which people had an average of 9 children to an industrialized society in which they have slightly under two.

Coupled with huge increases in life expectancy, this puts a crushing burden on children.

The long term implications of providing monthly support to parents is, in most cases, much more significant than the one-time bride price.

(I will also note that the average bride-price I have seen is more like 6 months earnings of the prospective groom, but it does vary.)

A typical young couple would struggle here on their combined earnings even if they sent nothing to parents.

This is a significant factor in the recent increase in the average age of marriage here, which is now much higher than most readers would guess.

It also is a very thorny issue in cross-cultural marriages.

We send money each month to my wife's parents equal to the full time earnings of two factory workers, and it is more money than they ever earned when younger.

My mother has always been frugal and a saver, and her savings plus Social Security take good care of her.

How do I rationalize supporting my wife's parents and not my own???

My daughter will be raised being told that she has some 40 years to plan for her retirement, and that doing so is her responsibility.

I will take care of her mother and myself (and most likely leave her a fair aount as well).

She should plan to live her life to the fullest while being responsible for herself and to not try to shift that responsibility to anybody else, and especially not to her children.

The upside of cross-cultural families is the opportunity to try to meld what is best from both cultures.

Thai dowries change with the times

Laura Kuhn, Phoenix AZ USA — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 06:15:10 GMT

Each culture has it's own way of "proving yourself" as American Welsh and coming from Celtic traditions, my family's main interest is a suitor (male or female) joing our family is learning what they like in music ("what do you sing?", not if "what instramnets do you play" but My Father established a test for any man seeking to marry me, he had to go into the back yard with my Father and fight him. My Father was very well trained. When I proootested this in 20th century America my Father explained that "he doesn't have to take me down, all he has to do is to get up once I put him down. If he doesn't have the courage to do that he is unworthy. As long as he gets up, he has my blessing" My Mother, also a competant fighter, (it is part of Celtic Culture)At 17 I thought my Father was crazy, at 47, I think he and my Mother were the most sane, and thoughtfull parents ever.

Thai dowries change with the times

Jay, lost somwhere — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 07:31:52 GMT

Well...it really does bother me that people think its kinda okay to take dowry....whichever way it is...whether the gal's parents or the guy's parents.
In India, its so entangled in the system that people kill new born baby girls all because of the dowry..they cant afford to have a daughter.
Dowry is illegal,but,hey,since when did laws overtake tradition.
I remember a guy working in a bakery as a sales boy tell me mom that he is worth $5000...may not seem much to us but to people who earn $50 per month and those who have 2 to 3 daughters it sure is a huge thing.
Amongst the rich its more like a fashion statemen,fathers give houses and cars as a dowry.
In a country where the divide between the rich and the poor is widening...its mind numbingly painful to see such ostentatious show of wealth

Thai dowries change with the times

D, Sunnyvale, CA — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 07:45:33 GMT

This was interesting to me... Hmong culture has lowered the "bride's price" with changing times. (Look up Hmong if you're confused!) I have known many recently married couples who have invested into a nice ceremony and honeymoon rather than give a small fortune to her parents. It has almost become a "bad sign" to ask for money when getting married. It shows greed, selfishness, not-caring-about-the-start-of-your-children's-new-life type of thing. Sure it use to be that the more educated or more wealthier you were meant that you were more "valuable", but I'm sure somewhere along the way people got smart and realized that love mattered more than social status.

I think this article represents a very small population in Thailand, thus bias and misrepresenting.

Thai dowries change with the times

GS Kok — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 08:06:51 GMT

It's an interesting read! I agree with Steve that Thai are very hospitable and nice people, having lived with them when I was schooling in England and visit them many timesduring those years.
I also have a strong believe in tradition and after 10 years in England, I am under the impression that what make us Asian different from European or American are our traditions. Throw that away and we will be no different from our "farang".
I also like the term Karen used; "Bride Price". But whichever term we used we are forgeting the most important thing in this tradition. It's the coming together of two loving people. There seems to be a lot of horror stories around, but so far none imegered except for a disgraunted John Doe, who is still waiting for his "bride price" to be returned. He sound cheated and unhappy!
Looking on the bright side, I would rather think of John having helped his bride family ride through some difficult times and provided an oppurtunity for them to bring themselve above the poverty level.
Thailand although is a developing country, is still very poor when compared to neigbour like Malaysia or Singapore. People get by with just US$100 / month! It's probably the place where you will see the most 60 year old "farang" being escorted by beautiful young girls which they call wife! Let's face it the country have more girls then man and thus having a few "farang" with young wife does not hurt the economy one bit. But one always hope that this will help the wife family progress and as long as the feeling is mutual between them, I don't see any harm in either accepting a "dowry/bride price" or having older "farang" with young Thai wife. The important thing is that everyone is happy.
Well for Miss Warangkana I wish you good luck with your future husband and hope he will not disappoint your family! Thank you & Sawadee Krup.

Thai dowries change with the times

Dek Wat, Texas — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 10:00:31 GMT

Good job Norman and if you still living in Khon Kean you are a lucky guy. I have to agree with you 100 % about Thai woman, if your love for her is not enough you should find some other girl. The parents are not in control of their daughter 's life, especially if they are mature and have their own life.

Thai dowries change with the times

ABN, Singapore — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 11:15:48 GMT

A Dowry is a GIFT. It doesn't carry the tag "SOLD". It is personal and private. And it is part of many Asian cultures, and of course it has been misused by many unscrupulous people. It is unfair to turn a customanry Dowry to suit your own personal feelings or tight purses.

Thai dowries change with the times

Tod in Bangkok — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 11:30:15 GMT

While your observations are quaint and folksy, they are for the most part outmoded, and behind the times.

That being said, all too many foreign men pay exhorbitant sin-sod money to their Isaan semi-literate, high-school drop out bride to be's parents.

There are a few rules of sin sod that should be followed.
1) Any children by a previous marriage makes a women by thai standards 'second hand goods' and worth not a satang.
2) Lack of education, lack of a fair job, or any skillset besides pulling rice also equates to zero sin sod.

It is sad that the alleged culture thais have is really only generations of mindless brainwashing designed to keep the classes separated.

Thai dowries change with the times

David, Seoul, S. Korea — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 12:16:43 GMT

I am married to a village girl from Issan (not a 'girl', she's 27). I am from the USA and knew my wife for 15 months before we got married.

I told my wife that, first, I was marrying her, not her family. Second, I told her that paying the 'sin sod' was like 'buying her' and that is how it would look to Americans and I would not buy a slave.

However, I told her that when we got married (again) in Thailand, I would give her US$2000 to help pay for the wedding but I would only show her parents my bank book to prove I had enough to care for her. There was no argument.

Thai dowries change with the times

Tim...Kohn Kaen — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 12:52:09 GMT

"I would like to know where you can buy a new Toyota Camry in Thailand for a million baht... Try almost three times that amount!"
"dingdongrb"

You must be a fool with money if you are paying B3 mil for a Camry!!!!! Try B1.3 mil for a nicely equipped one. LOL. I gotta nice Yamaha scooter I'll let you have for B500k...LOL

Thai dowries change with the times

james chan. bangkok. — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 13:39:51 GMT

in response to khun Kaweeka (Sent Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:33 AM),

although i was raised in an upper-middle class society; i do live (and have a serious hand-on experience) with other classes. this article, although presenting from a single POV, does portray thai society rather accurately. Not all families "sell" their chilren to the highest bidder, and certainly not all families treat their children as an asset.

if your argument should be valid, then you are presenting the exact same bias as the writer, just from different POV. although there is a significant different between bangkok and the rest of the kingdom, stereotyping them all together doesn't seem fair.

Thai dowries change with the times

Andy Vasvari , Brooklyn, New York — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 15:36:47 GMT

Dowry is somehow a tradition in other countries too,
but in some, it is the girl, the would be bride that has to bring in.
In Hungary for instance it is not money, but complete bedsheet set, kitchenware of 12 sets.
.....Hungarian girls marry easier than some others.....

Thai dowries change with the times

Paul, flagstaff, AZ — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 16:12:17 GMT

I did research in college on Dowry practices and found it most disturbing when the parents come back years into the marriage and demand more money (dowry) for their son/daughter and if it is not paid the parents kill or take back their child. The research also exposed what is referred to as "dowry fires", where the husband wants 'dowry' money or a divorce of sorts and sets his wife on fire if he doesn't get the money. This practice has turned from helping the daughters parents, because daughters don't work on the farm nor grow to work and provide income to the parents, so when they marry the husband pays a "lost wage" for the daughter to help the parents, usually farmers that are usually in debt to landowners and moneylenders. This practice has become extortion, especially for the families that do not have to rely on this income to survive and the daughters have been more capable of bringing money into the home.

Thai dowries change with the times

Dave, Chicago,IL — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 17:36:23 GMT

To all you American who think you have money and would like to go to Thailand and buy yourself a bride....you are in a rude awakening. Yes, the will marry you and come back to the state with you, and just when you things are fine they will pick up and leave your a**. Thanks for the Sin Sod! You can not but love in any part of the world....it just happen.

Thai dowries change with the times

Sam, NJ — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 19:10:08 GMT

Imam Zia,

What happens when the marriage is second, third, or fourth? Does the dowry increase as the groom is getting used up? thanks

Sam

Thai dowries change with the times

Richard, Los Angeles, CA — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:53:15 GMT

I once was involved with a Thai lady whom lived in Hong Kong for work, but has a family in the Northeast section of Thailand near the Laos border. We were about to plan our marriage until the Dowry issue came up which I hadn't known about. I learned this through the dating/marriage internet service. Not ony was it a culture shock for me as a Westerner in the USA, but it was a very demeaning treatment towards women that you would put a price on a female human being. Out of respect for her parents' tradition, I offered a fairly reasonably "gift" in terms of US Dollars (I wasn't making a lot of money, but reasonably average for a Californian) of which sums to a lump amount of $5,000. Converting that into Thai Baht is alot of money for the Thais. They accepted it, although I was not happy about their family putting a slavery for sale price on a truly ethical, honest, and loving lady. About a month later, She told me that her parents had begun pressuring her hard for more money to increase their "face competition" of a bigger dowry, and the amount of demand rose to an additional $20,000 more making the total sum of $25,000. I thought this was insane and totally inhumane. I tried to explain her that in my western culture and American societal laws (or rules) that "buying" brides is the same as buying slaves. I explained that the American history back in time when the Blacks/African Americans were brought to America as slaves and the owners sold the slaves for money. This was abolished by former US President Abraham Lincoln whom ended the slavery in US History. The US Constitution has an amendment in the Federal laws that makes buying brides the same as buying slaves ILLEGAL. IT is very dehumanizing and inhumane. Even if the Thai parents agreed to give the money back to the Bride and Groom, still the concept of this is no different. The became a problem for me and my would be wife I was going to marry. She argued with her parents of this western value. She was willing to marry me without the dowry. She doesn't care about the dowry or the face value of the dowry because she realized that you canNOT put a price on the soulmate human being and you canNOT put a price on the true love. You canNOT buy love or happiness. Her parents insisted on the total sum of USD $25,000 or the parents would disown their daughter whom I was going to marry. This had a very painfully sad heartbreaking ending. We did not get married. Her parents would not allow her to marry. I met another woman in the USA instead. I will never forget this lady, her name is Lek. She will always be in my life and memory forever. So, upon coming across this topic, I am glad to be able to share my experience with those of you of similar experience involving second world Asian women and their culture that which is tied to the dowry tradition. There are some Thais out there that do not ask for dowries, but ask that the groom keep their word for taking good care of their bride/daughters as a lifetime promise and committment in good health and happiness is all that matters to most Thais. Thais are sensitive people and they are very good people i have ever experience during one of my trips to Thailand. It's a very different world in Thailand and their culture is different that one must understand by self-studying the country, their government system, basic laws, rights, respect, culture, women, children and their way of life. If you don't like it or expect to complain, then do NOT go there or you will greatly insult their culture. The dowry is begining to change based on my experience with my would be future wife,Lek. Lek didn't care about the money because she is a modern generation person and her parents are very old schooled generation (her parents are elderly). The modern younger generation are slowly coming to realizing what dowry does to them and their self-worth as female human beings. Their influence will some day in the future, or near future have an impact on their older generation members and hopefully it will open them up to realizing the value of their Thai daughters; their daughters are invaluably worth more than what you put a currency amount on their souls. No amount of money can replace their daughters. The westerners needs to take the responsibility of educating their would be thai brides and their thai parents that if their parents value their thai daughters more than anything in the world, then they should not put a price on their daughters and sell them in exchange for material value that would simply disappear in a matter of seconds, but cannot replace the life of a loved one. If westerners are looking for a fast marriage overseas, think twice again, about the consequences of buying a bride from the USA, The US INS may not like it which can spell legal troubles for US westerners going there to "buy" brides. The US Federal laws, as most aren't aware of prohibits the purchasing of humans for slavery. They are watching and will give you problems if you come home to the US with a new bride, it will get the US officials suspicious and westerner men may face criminal charges. If I were you, I would build the relationship first and educate them about western/USA culture and basic USA laws, and the American way of life. Most Thais, more importantly, think that Americans are financially indispensable, which is not true. The cost of living far outweighs than Thailand's cost of living. For an American dollar you can go a long way there for as little money because the Bahts are much lower in value, they would sterotype you as a very wealthy westerner. Being in Thailand with US money, yes, indeed, does make you much richer than being in the USA as a break even point. Thais don't know this well. They need to be made aware that when the Thais come to the USA, their cost of living will be a shock and they are not used to working hard to make a decent living in American whereas Thailand and the Phillipines work less for less money. They don't work as hard and they don't suffer as badly and the westerner would in the USA if the Westerner in the US doesn't work at all, the westerner could end up homeless on the street. It is the US westerners' responsibilities to teach the Thais of the westerner's way of life that are not as easy as they (Thais) might think or assume.

My Thai wedding plans was called off for good based on the dowry demand and the would be bride being caught in a cross-fire between myself and her parents. Our cultural tradition clashed, and I didn't want to "buy" her , but rather to earn her love and trust to me, and the laws in the US prohibits me from practicing the "human for sale" concept which was abolished by former President Abraham Lincoln and that law holds steadfastly in the US Constitution. If you attempt to do this yourself, then get yourself a very good and expensive defense attorney, because the Feds and the INS are going to watching what you bring back in the US and the registration documents will show them what you are doing. I studed Women, Sex Roles, and Women's Culture in college- about women of all over the world and their way of life, sex roles, and cultural differences. This gives me a much higher consciousness of respect for females worldwide. Don't buy them, earn their trust and love that's worth more than money or material value.

Thai dowries change with the times

Ken taylor, Seminole Florida 33777 — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 22:28:49 GMT

I have married 2 Thai women, the first was only in it for the money. The second was wonderful and we enjoy a happy life together here in America today. A Sin sod is a Thai custom for a long time. You are NOT buying a human being, just paying the mother for the milk she supplied her daughter, for the education that she received and things like that. If the Thai woman has a child, children, or has been married before then the dowry can be reduced or eliminated all together. You just need to talk with the family. Thai men have to pay just the same so it is true. The family in Thailand are more than likely very poor and to have their daughter marry an American does so much for the family in the village. It only makes their life better. The woman that you marry will more than over pay you back with love and devotion 500%. Thai women are raised to take care of thier husband. I am glad to say I have a Thai wife and I can not see life without her. After all how much do you spend on a wedding here? Consider how much a wedding costs in Thailand, mine was $1500 total and every person from the village was there and we had fun for 2 days. Not everyone can say they were married in Thailand, you will NOT forget it ever.

Thai dowries change with the times

Dnoa — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 04:12:27 GMT

I am an African born Canadian now living in and Married to an Asian. I have seen it all. There are pros and cons on each side. In Africa dowry shows ability to provide and commitment. Human beings don't value anything that costs nothing, that why we see see many throw away marriages/divorces in the west. The process of dowry negotiations goes through stages which give both families opportunities to really know each others characteristics. Besides all that it has always been nothing but a token of appreciation. Some aAfrican tribes still require as many as 10 cows. whatever it is someone's daughter is always priceless. As for those those stingy westerners out there who can't part with with a token of a few dollars to honour the parents, try somewhere else.

Thai dowries change with the times

jojo star — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 05:57:42 GMT

I paid dowry - i am indian marrried to a thai - so reverse for me but I thought it was good custom to follow. My wife and I decided how much it would be not her parents, they did not ask for any amount, any frankly any amount would have been acceptable. In total it was THB 99,999, 4 rai land costing THB 100,000 and 9 Baht gold bars (Thais like the number 9). My wife kept the gold, the land is owned by my wife but her father farms it and keeps any rice/profit he makes from it, and money was kept by her parents, we did not ask for or want it back. I don't see what is the big deal to oppose this, I felt it was a good custom - same with the 9 monks who came to our wedding.

Thai dowries change with the times

Tom, Sidney, OHio — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 10:42:02 GMT

I married at Thai women 4 years ago. We discussed this custom. I told her and she understood that I was not in a position to pay a large sum of money. That I had enough money to make us happy and buy a new house in america I could not spend 20,000 USD on wedding. She understood, and her mother understood. We still plan to "marry" in Thailand. It is understood that the wedding will be tradiitnal with gold and cash, but all will be returned.Maybe in the next year that will change to not including these things, but I understand a traditional, I am just not willing to pay for it.

Thai dowries change with the times

Christina — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:37:42 GMT

When I attended a Thai wedding last year, the groom's family provided a dowry to the bride's family, but the bride's family returned the money to the couple during the gift exchanging ceremony later in the wedding. My Thai friend explained that that was becoming the custom, for the dowry exchange to take place for symbolic measure but the dowry given to the couple to start their lives together, in which case it isn't so objectionable at all.

Thai dowries change with the times

Heather, Woodbury, MN — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 17:10:33 GMT

It is hysterical and very American that this blog is on discussing brides and dowries and all of the sudden people pop in and start debating the price of a Toyota and how you can buy one and ship it overseas for less than the price of buying it for 1 million bhat. How goofy.

Thai dowries change with the times

djkaveman, Carlsbad, CA — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 17:48:57 GMT

Quick question for anyone who could shed light on the matter..

I am in the process of getting engaged to my thai girlfriend (who, i'm reluctant to admit, used to be a bar-girl working in pattaya before we met). Her parents have asked for a sin-sod of 2,000,000 baht (approximately $67,000). Not only that, they have asked for it to be paid before or on the day of the engagement, which is coming up soon. Firstly, I was under the impression that the sin-sod was not due to be paid until the wedding day? At this point in time, i was merely looking to get engaged to my girlfriend, and then eventually marry her when i managed to save up enough to pay the sin-sod. What was merely supposed to be an act of commitment, seems to be turning into something more than just that.

Also, after reading some posts from others above, it seems that 2,000,000 baht ($67,000 USD) is a rather large amount for an ex-bar-girl whose family live up-country. I am beginning to think there is something more to the story than meets the eye (perhaps her family has incurred gambling debts, or are into some other kind of addiction or craze for which they are in desperate need of cash). I don't for a minute want to pursue this relationship further if this is the case, and most certainly don't want to be paying any kind of sin-sod to fuel this kind of behavior.

My doubts were raised further upon learning that no thai guy would in their right mind would expect to pay that kind of money for a girl that used to be a prostitute, let alone even think of marrying a girl from that kind of background. If this is the case, do you think my girlfriend's parents are trying to extort money from me because they know i'm a foreigner and could perhaps afford to pay such a large amount? Do thai parents have different standards for thai and foreign suitors?

I know sin-sods can run into the millions of dollars amongst upper-class thais, but this girl used to be a whore for christ's sake. if anything, her parents should be grateful to me for even considering marrying her and taking her off their hands.

any insight on the matter would be most appreciated.

thanks.

Thai dowries change with the times

Devynn - Fayetteville, NC — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:32:34 GMT

i see why a lot of ppl hate this sort of thing. and most of them are men. don't EVER have girls in the US then. the "tradition" of the bride's parents paying for the wedding IS going by the wayside in many circles, but hasn't gone away completely, yet. dowries, "bride price," paying for the wedding are ALL things that look like we're selling our daughters away to the highest bidder. i say, if he can't show me that he can afford to take care of her NOW, he can't have her! i've been doing it myself for YEARS and i'm just fine. what's his problem? of course, in my daughter's case she'd been taking care of HERSELF for a while, but the point remains the same. :p and i'd do my level headed best to throw her whatever type of wedding she wanted. why? b/c she's my daughter and i love her and she deserves it. :)