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Deja vu in the Afghanistan tape archives

Posted: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 11:36 AM
Filed Under:

 I've never been to Afghanistan – only looked at countless photographs and screened hours of video reports on the U.S.-led conflict there since 2001.

But over the past week, I dug into NBC News archival coverage of Afghanistan as we prepare for the eighth anniversary of the U.S. invasion of the war-torn country on Oct. 7 and ahead of the launch of Richard Engel's documentary 'Tip of the Spear' on Sunday.

As I watched 50 years worth of highlights of NBC News coverage of the country, one feeling jumped out at me again and again in the pre-2001 segments: doesn't this look familiar? The texture and atmospherics of video coverage, the suffering of Afghans and statements like Tom Brokaw's "the Afghans have a fighting tradition," at the end of the Soviet occupation in 1989, struck me as being eerily reminiscent of reporting we often see today.

Obviously, the conflicts are not exact parallels. Afghanistan did not provoke the Russian invasion by hosting terrorists who attacked Moscow and our volunteer troops certainly aren't Soviet conscripts. But many of the complexities of a foreign army fighting a war in Afghanistan persist.

Here are just some of the reports over the years that stood out to me. Let me know what you think in the comments section below. 

1959: Chet Huntley reported on the state of Afghanistan in advance of a trip by President Dwight Eisenhower. Afghan culture at the individual level stands out in his narration: "The average Afghan's loyalty starts with his family and extends to his tribe...sometimes, he does what the national goverment tells him to."

 
1980: One thing that has definitely changed since 1980: the mujahideen fighting foreign forces are far better armed. Kalashnikovs and RPGs have replaced the colonial-era British rifles so prone to fail against Soviet troops.
 

1980: Even one year after the Soviet invasion, it was clear that the Afghan resistance was stiffening. 

1984: Five years after the Soviet invasion, it was still hard fighting for the mujahideen as they attacked remote Russian outposts defended by air power and artillery, and ammunition was in short supply. But note the tone of this report, in the Cold War context of the 1980s, the mujahideen fighters were American allies.The U.S. covertly aided the mujahideen fighters throughout the war by supplying weapons and ammunition

And Ishmael Galani, the commander quoted at the end of this piece, apparently fought against al-Qaida with the U.S. military and Afghan government in 2001. (I've been unable to find reference to him recently – if anyone knows of his current whereabouts, please post a comment below).

1989: Tom Brokaw, reporting as the deadline for Soviet pullout approached, noted the importance to mujahideen of bases in Pakistan and that "the Afghans have a fighting tradition. They have battled invaders for centuries. The Soviets are just another name in a long list."

 
1989
Immediately before the pullout, freelance journalist Jon Alpert got Soviet reaction on the descriptions of Central Asia as "Russia's Vietnam." Perhaps more to the point for America in 2010 is the end of this clip, when a soldier compares the fighting prowess of Afghanistan government troops to insurgents.
 

You can see all of the clips above, and more, in the context of the full reports here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33107901#33127143 . And beyond commenting below, you can always make custom clips like those above for your own blog or site from any video on msnbc.com by using the "clip & embed" function in our video player.

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From what I've read, the pro Soviet ruler of Afgahnistan had passed a law that everyone in the nation would have access to education, including girls in the remote areas. This infuriated the war lords who then converged on Kabul with a random massive shelling attempting to overthrow the legal government. The Russians invaded to save the gov that was all for moving the country into the future.  
just goes to show that history always does repeat itself. I personally believe the war in the middle east is a joke, Bush went over to finish his dads work and capture Sadam, and then decided to see how many oil filled countries he could setup military bases in. PULL OUR TROOPS OUT NOW, THE WAR NEEDS TO END
Our blood is not worth it. Sure, this region can be a hotbed for terrorists. It also has an excellent reputation for tribal warfare. A much smarter strategy would be to stir them up against each other
Awesome - this is exactly what I told myself when we went in there in 2001. No one wins in Afghanistan except the Afghans.
This montage is qutie impressive, Mr. Young.  The parallels between the Russian invasion and our own are certainly true in terms of general strategy and Afghan resolve.

I do believe, however, that our cause, our reason for invading Afghanistan- to deny it as a base and safe haven for terrorist groups- is noble and will propel us toward victory.  This cause stands in stark contrast to the ruthless land grab staged by the Soviets.
What's the writer's point?  Afghanistan housed the terrorists that killed more than 3000 of our U.S. citizens, on Sept. 11th, 2001.  We made a vow to clear their Country of the low life cowards that were responsible and this President had better do just that.  If he doesn't, he better start looking for future employment.
The one BIG difference betweeen all the prior history of conflict in Afghanistan is that the US is not there to conquer the country!  We are there to rid the country of the opressive and murderous Taliban and Al-queda, and of course continue searching for the Mastermind of 9/11, Osama Bin Laden.  Once that mission is accomplished we will get our troops out of there pronto!  The US has never gone into a country to occupy it solely as our goal.  Whether it was Mexico in 1849, Cuba, the Philippines, France, Germany (twice), Grenada, Panama, Viet Nam, Korea, Japan, Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan, our mission was to oust an entrenched enemy, bandit, or dictator.  All your research of hours of old tapes failed to come up with that one fact!!
It's history repeating itself, and as you and Yogi Berra said, it's deja vu all over again.
The problem now is that if the Taliban and Al Quaida are not defeated, their politics and terror will spread throughout the region like a Santa Ana-driven wildfire.  With both, or either, having their hands on Pakistan's nuclear trigger, we will face the gravest danger yet to our national security, and the world will be that much closer to a Third World War.
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!

Rudyard Kipling
Do you think we might learn from our mistakes, or possibly the mistakes of others?
I thought the object of being attacked in 2001, was to find and kill Osama bin Laden. Lets get our special forces units and droans along with our Allies to do the job and bring all the other forces home.
D Dowler that was our reason for invading Afghanistan but the Bush admin really wanted the oil in Iraq so we abandoned the country and poured our blood and treasure into Iraq. That's what so PO'ld people like Pat Tillman who joined to fight those who attacked us on 9-11 only to get involved in a war of choice in a nation having nothing to do with the events of that horrible day.
I believe that we will not 'win' in Afghanistan because their 'culture' is very different from western culture.  They view us as invanders/occupiers and will, in the long run, run us out of their land like they did Alexander the Great, the British and the Russians!

We should not 'waste' our American blood in a land that we should not be in.  Our interest in Afghanistan is a mystery to me!  I don't believe that fighting in the middle east will prevent extreemist from attacking us.

What I do believe, however, is we must 'go' to the source of why they, for the most part, 'hate' us in those lands.  We know the answer, but 'refuse' to address the need for us to leave the middle east and 'level' the playing field as it relates to Isreal and Palistine!  

Once we are viewed by the middle east as 'fair' to all the middle east, we then, and possibly only then, will 'gain' the respect and possible friendship of the people of those lands.
The Afghan can have their country, if they just don't let the terrorist use it to attack others
How can you protect the occupation soldiers if not with the old 100*1 retaliation practice? Spaniards applied it in Central America (Read Fray De las Casas for example), etc, etc.
The letter sent to Eisenhower by Bertrand Russell and Von Neumann after the first soviet A bomb test should be heard...
wow jack you are the kind of guy that wants to provide them safe havens in order to plan large scale attacks on US soil.  way to cheer cowardice on.
Here we go again, liberal reporters and civilians with a weak liberal bias trying to justify their lack of national conviction (guts) of what is good for our nation.  From the dawn of mankind there has always existed a warrior cast .. people willing to fight and die so other countrymen can live free or at best, free of enemies.  Let the Warriors fight the wars!  We always will be here to take care of you, the meager, for the right reason. GOD, HONOR, COUNTRY!!!!
if we had stayed after Charlies war and help rebuild we would not be there today. But the dems dident want to back then thats why we are there today.The big differance to day is we are seen as invaders back then we were heros...I would like to congradulate the dems for putting us in this spot we will not win the hearts of the people today after what we did yeasterday! Thanks again democratic party you have made a lafing stock out of our once great country
This story is typical defeatest, Left Wing MSNBC propaganda disguised as the musings of a unbiased MSNBC reporter who just happened to be looking at 50 years of video footage of conflicts in Afghanistan.  Miraculously he happens to find what he considers to be "history repeating itself".  Would he have said the same thing about the US invasion of Japan had it come off in December of 1945?  Would he have compared 1945 to the events of the 19th Century when the US and European countries had standing armies in Japan, resulting in the Boxer Rebellion?  It is a self-serving editorial (not news) to once again compare the US to a tyrant nation as was/is the Soviet Union...opps, Russia!  We have all seen endless photos of the bleak, barren wasteland called Afghanistan.  It's not worth a single drop of American blood, let alone the deaths of hundreds of brave American soldiers and Marines.  If it were not for the Taliban and Bin Laden we wouldn't be within 1,000 miles of that s**t hole country.
I spent two tours in Viet Nam in our governments attempt to contain communism.  The communist wanted the country and it's population under their control, and they got it.  Now we are a trading partner with that country.  Radicals like the Taliban and Al Quaida don't want only to control a country, they want to use it as a jumping off point to kill us, not control us but rid the earth of us.  It really is a case of stop them there or stop them here....the next time they come.  But be assured we won't be a trading partner with Al Quaida when the dust settles.  Either they will be dead or we will.
Clueless muck from a journalist with an eye toward emerging as the new "authority" on Afghanistan.  Bottom line up front (BLUF):  Afghanistan is owned by warlords and has been for centuries.  Before 9/11 the US had no desire or reason (it is a barren country with no real natural resources - the Soviets wanted it to fulfill their National need/desire for a warm water port) to even pay it any attention.
Then....the warlord/tribal organization that ran the country aided and abetted the madmen that committed the second largest attack on our country, and the highest number of dead innocent civilians.  They had to go then, they have to go now.  America, stop trying to manage our response to a global and enduring threat by hitting the "reset" button on your microwave.
It doesn't matter why the US thinks it is in Afghanistan.  The Afghans fight us because were are a foreign army on their land.  They will fight the next invader and the next and the next.  In between, they will fight among themselves.  
Afghanistan has been called the 'Graveyard of Empires'.The Persians, Alexander the Great, the Bristish, the Soviets, and now us. Nobody will ever 'win' in Afghanistan because there is nothing to 'win'.
Our military is in Iraq and Afghanistan (and 120 other countries) only because it puts money into the bulging bank accounts of the military/industrial complex.  National security has nothing to do with it.  Our military is not a military at all, it is an international police force whose job it is to protect the interests of the corporations that own America.
With Obama in charge, we might as well cut and run.  Even our allies know he's going to screw it up, eventually.  I'm not heaping praise on Bush, I'm just saying we can either bungle along for four more years or get the hell out.  Time to go.
The Pakistanis are a front line state against the Taliban an Al-Qaeda.They have sacrificied more troops than all the west together.There huge effort an sacrifice is not recognised or appreciated proves that they are not seen as allies.U cant win wiw out them or Iran.
We are there for 2 reasons....Opium and a Natural gas pipeline into the Caspian sea basin...The Bogeyman being there is only an excuse do not fool yourselves.
The Biggest differance is we ar n ot trying to occupy AFG. As a Soldier who has served muliple tours there we are helping the people of AFG by supporting them and helping with infrastructure. We were attacked by camps in AFG thats why we briught down the Taliban now, we are there to enforce the safty of thw afghani people. We are doing great work and the MSM doesnt cover it. We are not doing 100% of what we are able to do. Why????? because the Generals on the ground are not being listened to. Soldier are afraid to fire first do to stupid ROE's and that gives the advantage to our enemies. The POTUS needs to step it up and listen to those who have experiance in counter-insugency and guerilla warfare. It would not look bad if he ask for guidence from someone who is well versed in war and to advise him on what the nexrt step should while leaving flexablity in the plan.
I agree with the gentleman fom SC. We have to stop them before the get to Pakistan. But what about India
China and the USSR. helping to secure the conflict. Don't they realize they are alot closer.
No,matter what we say our reason is for being over there to rid it of terrorists or bring democracy the Afghans ,Taliban ,Mujihadeen do not see it that way they will fight forever and we will be there for ever we will never win over there because you are fighting the country and what i mean when we kill one their kids grow up and fight us they go back to pakistan regroup attack us again and this will continue to happen until we leave
There is no way out for the u s. That is what happens when you out source what was needed to be done by the marines in the first place. By pulling the northern alliance in, to do the dirty work in the begining of the war and then change the balance of power by shifting it to the minority, the united states has blundered.
The u s never took the afghans seriously---we thought that with out wham bam technology and precision bombings through the eye of the needle would do us proud. First we let Mullah Omar escape out of Kandhahar and then OBL escape. Today 79% plus afghanistan is in control of the taliban. U S needs at least a 150000 troops for at least 5 years term to make the neccessary changes. Other than that, it is a lost cause.
My husband served in Viet Nam, All I know is if they don't send help, our boys are going to be picked off.
They are sentencing them to horrible mental and physical creulty and most likely we will have lots more coming home to be buried, or left there because we cannot get them out. President has NO experience in this and neither do most of his staff.  This is not a game..listen to those over there, they know what is happening. Our generals know the cost, and say send help NOW
I remember a movie about a texas conservative who with a congressman increased the amount of US covert aid from a few million to 1 billion dollars and how proud they were of this.
When the Taliban took power they destroyed all the poppie fields. now Afganistan is the number one opium producer in the world with the taliban using the money to fight the war.These same people who supported the Taliban found out it was unfair to women they were. . Lets get a democracy in there. The current president is an old busieness partner of Bush jr.  
The American people buy cocian and heroin by the ton top fill their life with pleasure.
I now see both sides of the question to increase the military in afganistan are protesting at the White House against President Obama. Where were these pickets when President Bush got us into one false war, with shock and awe and another to get Osama Ben Ladin. Why did Bush let Osama Ben Ladins whole family get to leave the US after 9-11.
People get the government that they desrve.  If they want to turn the clocks back to 700AD in Afganistan, let them.  We should get out and hunt Al Queda with Predators and Spec Op teams where ever they hang their turbans.
The choice is simple. Send troops today. A hundred
lives lost today or millions tomorrow. I pray the right choice is made.
"When you are left for dead on Afghanistan's plains...
and the women come out to cut up your remains...
roll over on your rifle and blow out your brains...
and go to your god like a soldier."
                        - Sir Rudyard Kipling
It is not the same. USA has enough resources and technology to finish this war. But somehow, THEY DO NOT WANT TO FULLY COMMIT TO VICTORY. In Vietnam they tried their best and could not succeed. In Afghanistan they are not interested in wining. Not yet. I guess there is still some business to do in doing war there.
A few things come to mind here.  As a proud member of a Ranger Battalion back in the late 70's (remember the "failed" raid into Iran? I was part of that debacle.)  I strongly believe in an old addage that we had back then.  "Kill 'em all and let God sort it out".  It still holds true.  If you want victory,  then act like a warrior, no rules, no holds barred.  Kill anyone and everyone you have to in Afghanistan.  Be exceedingly brutal. Rain death and destruction on them.  Take no prisoners.  If you are not prepared to wage full scale WAR with these guys then get the hell out.  We won WWII with just such a strategy.  We firebombed civilians in Dresden and no one blinked. We nuked Japan and no one blinked.  
   We somehow are still stuck in the mental minefield of Viet Nam, where we are afraid of being seen as bad guys.  You either go in and kick the crap outta these people or you dont.  Half way doesnt get it done.
   And despite my violent rhetoric, I actually wish we would get out.  Frankly we would be better served by massive covert actions against the scum.  Send in spec.ops hit teams and such.  Oh, but wait,  that would probably be illegal and distasteful and offend some puke bag somewhere.  I still say "kill 'em all or go the hell home.  This is VietNam style stupidity all over again.
Everyone calls the situation in afghanistan a war yet it is not that. It is a conquest. The past has shown that a country with more power and less brains takes over another country for their own simple agenda. The past will continue to repeat itself until the people in power decide to focus on peace not hate.
After all the post vietnam talk about not EVER repeating the mistake.... then BUSH makes the decision to invade Afghanistan only 20 short years after the Russians leave...
I think most Americans saw the foley from the start, Bush obviously didnt...
Hey Paul Kahn, dude, the Boxer Rebellion happened in China, not Japan. Learn your history before you spew forth venom.
For whatever reason (blood-thristy) American attempts to justify its reasoning for being there...I (for one) am not falling for this new world of propaganda. I'm a two-time Viet-vet who knows where to draw the line based on
'lessons learned'.
American greed...all wrapped up like we have to undertake this as principle.
Send your kids to this one....I damn sure won't send mine.
US perpertrated this by supplying Osama's fighters against Russia and left this country war-torned and factioned.
"Chickens coming home to roost".

Bobby Fitzgerald
Atlanta, GA
The US enemy is way beyond Al Quaida and the Taliban. Our enemy is within our own borders. The enemy within is our US Congressional Country Club. They are so removed from the lives of the majority of Americans living, and if their lucky, working to pay the bills and feed their families.
Americans need to feel they are a noble and altruistic breed. Not much critical self evaluation and clear appraisal of others is possible when Americans are addicted to a smug high self regard.  
A few things come to mind here.  As a proud member of a Ranger Battalion back in the late 70's (remember the "failed" raid into Iran? I was part of that debacle.)  I strongly believe in an old addage that we had back then.  "Kill 'em all and let God sort it out".  It still holds true.  If you want victory,  then act like a warrior, no rules, no holds barred.  Kill anyone and everyone you have to in Afghanistan.  Be exceedingly brutal. Rain death and destruction on them.  Take no prisoners.  If you are not prepared to wage full scale WAR with these guys then get the hell out.  We won WWII with just such a strategy.  We firebombed civilians in Dresden and no one blinked. We nuked Japan and no one blinked.  
   We somehow are still stuck in the mental minefield of Viet Nam, where we are afraid of being seen as bad guys.  You either go in and kick the crap outta these people or you dont.  Half way doesnt get it done.
   And despite my violent rhetoric, I actually wish we would get out.  Frankly we would be better served by massive covert actions against the scum.  Send in spec.ops hit teams and such.  Oh, but wait,  that would probably be illegal and distasteful and offend some puke bag somewhere.  I still say "kill 'em all or go the hell home.  This is VietNam style stupidity all over again.
IN A WAR YOU EITHER WIN OR LOSE.IF YOU WANT TO WIN THEN YOU HAVE TO COMMIT THE RESOURCES TO WIN. THERE IS NO IN BETWEEN. WIN OR WITHDRAW AND RETURN OUR TROOPS HOME.HISTORY SHOWS THAT YOU CAN'T WIN IN AFGHANISTAN.
Our first mistake was Korea. We failed to follow General McCarthers winning solution and have paid for it ever since. We are in a quagmire that is very reminisent of Vietnam, (which I am a vetern of). The war is being run by politicians not the generals on the ground. If we would have gone into Afganistan with the same resolve that George W. Bush did going into Iraq we would be in control now. Anyway this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. I just hate the shambles our country is in because we cannot come up with a common resolve. Neither the Democrats or the Republicans are right. But if they would let go of the partison B.S. and talk to each other with an open mind something might get resolved. Fat chance of that happening.
In the 1980's,I was growing up in peshawar (Pakistan border city with Afghanistan). At the time I didn't have knowledge or experience of world politics and policies.The only thing we were told and would hear all the time is that Soviet union has invaded afghanistan and the mujahideen are fighting them the help of other nations to free the country from Russians.In my town I could see mujahideen everywhere and their commanders having fortified facilities everywhere in the city and outside the city. I was also seeing a lot of Americans and euroupeans and arabs there to help with the mujahideen cause.The city of Peshawar had become the center/HeadQuarter of this war from the Mujahideen side and its backers beside accommodating the influx of the millions of Afghan refugees.As the war progressed while I was gaing more and more knowledge, as my age progressed as well,of the world politics and the Afghans way of thinking.I could see a picture of endless fighting there. Afghanistan is purely a tribal country where so many tribals are proud of their way of life and ready to sacrifice their lives to protect their tribal honour.This tribalism could have changed in the long 40 years of King Zahir Shah rule if he had choosen to. But to prolong his rule he kept tribalism well and alive to engage one against the other to keep his 40 years long rule.Things are changed any today. The same ehtnic division, the same linguestic preference and the same geographical division/unity among tribes.In this type complex environment it is very very difficult for any outsider to win a war there. It may be very easy for any one to engage one Afghan against another by manipulating their animosity for each other but for ousider to fight them selves their and satay as an occupied force there, It just simply goes against the "NAANG AND NAAMOOS" (Honor and ego) of the afghan people.The afghan people live on the bases of this code of honor,nothing less.So as long as their ego and honor accompany the afghans, War by ousiders will never end in Afghanistan.On the basis of the afghan psychy (I am married to an afghan woman)I can see that this war of 8 yearsis not long war for Afghans if they have to protect their country from the outside powers. it is not the Taleban who has endless power or Al qaeda's help, it is the Afghan tradition to end the war at their terms. for this to happen they are ready for any sacrifice as we all know by now. May be it don't make a lot of sense to us living in a peaceful and free enironment but for afghans, that is the only way to live, Live with honor or die with honor.So I don't see any near by end to this conflict.another 8 years Mr. stokes young will still be searching some archives for some answers.
"rid the country of oppressive taliban and terrorists?"

Has anybody been to Saudia Arabia, where women are stoned to death for being raped? Or Egypt, where you are killed for 'blasphemy' or Jordan, where your hands are cut off for stealing? Last I checked all the 9/11 terrorists came from these countries, which are supposidly our allies. LOL.
None of the primarly Muslim countries respect human rights by our standards, nore do they treat women equally. We are wasting our time in Afghanistan. When the Afghans decide that this bronze-age crap is bad, then THEY will overthow the taliban.


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