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For Poles, U.S. election is personal

Posted: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 5:00 AM
Filed Under: ,



 SLUPSK, POLAND – For the citizens of the Polish city of Slupsk, the American election is personal.

Like the rest of Poland, the northern city has borne the scars of Europe’s many wars and invasions. Now Slupsk is preparing for another potential conflict – as proposed host to a controversial U.S. missile site, one that has drawn the fury of Russia.

Slupsk, which had to be rebuilt after World War II, is central to a U.S.-led NATO expansion around and into the former Soviet Union, which is ratcheting up the tension between Moscow and Washington.

"The people of Slupsk are more interested than ever in the U.S. election," Mayor Maciej Kobylinski said.

VIDEO: Poles and a Gdansk-based American share their views on the U.S. presidential election.

The mayor backs the missile site, envisioning new highways, a small civilian airport, a water park and an Olympic-size swimming pool "not only for Polish citizens, but for the Americans that will come," he said.

He’s dusting off the welcome mat for an estimated 1,000 U.S. military personnel, but the warmth toward the installation isn’t unanimous – and opinions are divided over which U.S. presidential candidate will be best for Poland.

For Woytech Czajka, who sells "gold of the north" – amber jewelry – on the Baltic Sea boardwalk 20 minutes north of Slupsk, "George Bush was a very good partner in politics for Poland, but I’ve heard that [Barack] Obama wouldn’t be as good."

Sipping Zywiec beer and showing off his resin pendants, Czajka, 21, said the missile site would protect his country.

"We are a free country now, but Russia doesn’t accept that," Czajka said.

"I heard that Obama doesn’t want to build it, so I prefer [John] McCain," he added.

A divided city 
Both candidates, in fact, back the plan. Obama, however, has said that he would want to test the effectiveness of the missiles before they are activated.

Under the defense deal, 10 missile interceptors will be placed in underground silos at Redzikowo airfield, on the outskirts of Slupsk.  By 2011 to 2013, they will work in conjunction with U.S.-run radar based in the Czech Republic to thwart a potential attack by Iran. In an attempt to quell the Kremlin’s worries, The U.S. Missile Defense Agency says the system cannot be used for an offensive attack without obvious modification of the football-sized field it will occupy. 

Yet the proposal has divided this city of 100,000.

"No to the U.S. Shield," reads red paint on a wall next to a busy market in the heart of Slupsk.

"The Russians threatened to point their missiles at Poland," if the deal was signed, said Mariusz Chmiel, a district leader who said he hoped Obama would win.

"Six months ago, our politicians did not believe them, but today, after the events in Georgia, the Russians’ threats should be taken seriously," he said, adding that three different surveys of the local population showed that 70 to 75 percent were against the missile shield site.

The local population’s views appeared largely stratified by age; those who lived through a Soviet presence in Poland are anxious about having any foreign troops back in their country.

"Those who remember the communist time under the Russian Army that was stationed near here say, ‘We used to have Russians and now the Americans are coming,’" said Krzysztof Pedzich, a local translator.

Slupsk is 65 miles away from Gdansk, home of the Solidarity labor movement which helped overturn Poland’s communist system. Poland is now a member of the European Union and was among the handful of EU nations to back the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

"If you could see how it used to be before, the foreign army, any foreign army ... is treated like an intruder," said Pedzich, a father of four, who was studying in Gdansk during the anti-communist protests in the late 1980s.

Jennifer Carlile / msnbc.com
Graffiti on a wall in Slupsk reads "No to the U.S. Shield."

A conquered land 
The city’s architecture tells of a tumultuous past.

Governed by Prussia and then Germany until the end of World War II, Russian forces razed most of Slupsk to the ground before the war’s end. Out of the ruins, the 16th century castle was rebuilt, along with the Witches Tower, where 18 women prisoners had been put to death by 1714. 

During a recent trip, children were feeding ducks on a lush green riverbank alongside the tower, which now houses a funky, contemporary art gallery. On the other side, laundry hung in front of a low-rise Communist tower block with "Skinheads" scrawled on its façade.

From well-maintained city gardens to an abundance of EU buntings, civic and European pride abound. But, unemployment is high and the average salary is just 2,500 Polish Zlotcych ($1,022) a month – about one-sixth lower than the national average.

For Kobylinski, the city mayor, the missile site will mean jobs while drawing American soldiers and tourists to the area, which is not on most tourist itineraries (The 65-mile train ride from Gdansk can take more than 2 1/2 hours).

Kobylinski, a member of a left-wing party, is convinced that the missile site will be built no matter who becomes the next U.S. president. So he's backing Obama, because of what he sees as their shared liberal philosophies.

With lots of family and friends in the United States, especially in Obama’s adopted hometown of Chicago, many here have a direct interest in the U.S. election, he added.

Jennifer Carlile / msnbc.com
Zbigniew Kramek guards the Redzikowo Airfield, where the U.S. missile site will be based.

Part-politics, part-Hollywood
For others, the process is part-politics, part-entertainment.

"The election in the U.S.A. looks like a big show, or Hollywood," said Aleksandra Rutkiewicz, 27, whose job is to promote Slupsk out of the 19th century city hall.

"I would prefer McCain because he’s not such a showman as Obama," she said, adding that she fully supported the missile shield.

At the Redzikowo airfield only a couple of old planes and disused buildings could be seen behind a guard’s fence.

For the guard there, the choice was more basic. Will one of (the candidates) make it so we can go to the U.S. without a visa?" asked Zbigniew Kramek. "He’s the one I want."

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Comments

There are 2 sides to this:-
1.America showing its muscle power in Europe/Asia.Will Russia accept this sitting down.
2.Not creating another Georgia in Poland.Could this lead to direct confronation between Russia and America at the dire expence of peace and stability in Poland?
The Polish are the only people to make the final decision as they will face the consequences (good or bad)ultimately.
Well, I don't agree with the assessment of Obama being a "showman."  I find his political ads so much more sincere and kind as opposed to McCain's.  I was disappointed that one of McCain's ads said that Obama was promoting sex education in kintergarden.  Not true - he wanted these youngsters to learn how to be careful in their dealings with people so as not to be sexually violated.  Big difference.  Then McCain said that Obama would increase taxes.  Again -not what Obama said.  The only ones who would see an increase would be those making over $250,000.  I don't mind hearing the truth - but both ads were distortion.  As for his running mate - she has done more than any other governor of Alaska to decimate the wolf population.  After killing some mature wolves, she ordered the destruction of 14 helpless wolf cubs.  I wouldn't want her to be my state's governor and much less the vice president of the U.S.
I live in Poland and I can say that most Poles are racists and would not vote for Obama anyway and what the poles have to say is not important they are 15 yrs behind the rest of Europe.The polish media keeps the population isolated from the rest of the world.Most of the educated Poles are now overseas snd what is left is not worth talking about.
I AM AN AMERICAN AND WE NEED TO STAY IN OUR OWN COUNTRY AND REBUILD THE DISASTER THAT IT IS NOW.  BELIEVE ME ACCORDING TO THE POLLS I SPEAK FOR M___________________ANY AMERICANS. WE NEED TO KEEP OUR NOSES OUT OF OTHER COUNTRIES BUSINESS AND LET THEM DO THERE OWN THING RIGHT OR WRONG. LET THE CARDS FALL WHERE EVER THEY MAY. WE NEED TO SPEND MONEY OVER HERE RATHER THAN SOMEPLACE ELSE JIM HALL.
It doesn't matter what the Poles think. We're AMERICANS and our Imperialistic Expansion Policy will not stop until we have control of the world. It's our manifest destiny as Americans. If the Russians object we'll fight them on their homeland too. Right through Alaska.
Palin/McCain 08.
Poles LOVE Freedom,  they even fought and spilled their blood to help America gain Independence from England!  We must respect their opinions, but deep down, they know that these missiles  will help defend their hard earned freedom!
Sto Lat!
The Polish government must not understand the concerns of the Federation of American Scientists and others in the scientific community (Postal, et al, published in Scientific American) that the missile defense system will likely not work.
How can we less government if we are springing up all over the world?
Another hawkish rattling of unnecessary swords by the like of the Bush/McCain war machine.  When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail! A little diplomacy goes a long way and there should never be any unilateral attacks by the u.s. unless we are actually attacked. None of this pre-emptive strike b.s. which is always supported by the military fear-mongers.
"Both candidates, in fact, back the plan. Obama, however, has said that he would want to test the effectiveness of the missiles before they are activated."

Ummm, that's already in the plan, and is in EVERY plan involving setting up any kind of defense.  Kind of an obvious duh there, but I can only assume that he is saying it to magically make it sound as if his position is different and better than McCain's 100% identical stance.  Cheap way to stand out by making it sound like we just throw stuff up without testing it first completely, but the reality is that their stance on this is identical, therefore it's not a factor, or shouldn't be a factor, in the election, no matter what one candidate says to try and make it sound different with him in office.
Yeah, great, now a country that aided the Nazi's in the extermination of millions of people want McCain in.  They're credible.
That's fantastic that these people have their own opinion about foreign politics, but I find it rather stupid that some people would rather see a continued decline in the worlds economy just to see a pool and small airport put in close to where they live.  Seems not only selfish, but pretty ignorant.

Backing a canditate because you want a public pool and small airport is about as clueless of a choice as voting based on religious views is.
The Poles are not voting in the USA
Sounds like more feathering of the nest what are we going to pay to Mr Kramek to use his town.More wasted taxpayer money still must be waiting for his check to come in the mail need to tell em were Broke!Maybe Hank Paulson can help him tell him were the line starts!!
Look out for Putin. Once a KGB agent always a KGB agent and if he thinks he can get away with reuniting USSR he will.
I too fear what the European's fear, expecially the Eastern portion of Europe.  A victory  for Obama will put an end to the USA involvement in Europe with the new concentration in the Africa and South America.  Obama will have a huge debt to repay to the minorities, liberals, media and Hollywood.  Poor Israel, he will do nothing to protect you!  But --lip!
In Poland we need a bigger american base like those in Germany. This can make Poland real partner in NATO.
"...Maybe Hank Paulson can help him tell him were the line starts!!" He don't need Hank to tell him where the line starts...it's right over there - six deep, and behind China, he ought to be able to see it for himself!
I think Obama will do the right thing by your country and mine. I understand that you want to be safe and who doesn't, but you have too understand what a missle site could mean and that in itself would not prove to be a good thing.
"Yeah, great, now a country that aided the Nazi's in the extermination of millions of people want McCain in.  They're credible."
"John Doe, Seattle, Washington (Sent Tuesday, September 23, 2008 7:24 AM)"
An unbelievable comment from someone who is obviously ignorant of history and doesn't know any facts. 6 million Poles died. 3 million Polish Jews and 3 million Polish Catholics. read a book fella and get educated before you spew such garbage. I can see why you sign off John Doe.

We should be thankful the Poles are our friends. I think they are more like us than Germany, Italians or the French.
Your damn right its personal, we've been on the short end of the stick for the past 8yrs; lied to, largest national debt,high unemployment, trade deficit, an illegal war (4000+ dead and counting)....
OUR WE BETTER OFF TODAY THAN WE WERE 8 YRS AGO? HE SAYS HES A MAVERICK or REBEL (WHATEVER) HE STILL VOTED 90% ALONG PARTY LINES!
Poland aided the Nazis? The fact is they resisted them
more fervently than any other European nation.I don't agree with the missile base but I can certainly understand the paranoia of a country that has been nearly continuously invaded, occupied, or laid to waste for the past several hundred years. It's nearly impossible for an American to empathise with that.
The question ought to be "Why is Russian-munism praying for Obama to win?"  Bye bye Baltics back to Putin if he does, win.  Vote Nobama, ....no way to trust Russia, ever.  From a Lithuanian-American, who remembers the Mongol USSR special forces animals that Gorbi sent through us with bullets and tanks (tank treads over people).  Afterwards the red army comandos just sat around benches, in a daze.  The units were pumped up on drugs.  Animals.  Russia.  Not their people.  Just Putin and his Mob.  Black Market Putin.  If more Americans lived through something similar, there would only be Republicans.  But the liberals would still cry from their hideouts in the tree branches.  Be proud of the USA.  We are all very fortunate to be Americans.  
Seems to me that what Russia and Venezuela is up to should demonstrate to the world that things are once again heating up. Poland should let it's people vote on the matter of the missle defense plan, and if they don't want it don't give it to them. We have plenty of submarines that can possibly be used for a missle defense not to mention their offensive capibility. The sides are being chosen now for the next cold, and potentialy hot war. Now the question is will the people of Venezuela allow Chaves to bring their country into the conflict or, will they revolt and throw Chaves out. Does the people of Venezuela want a few ICBM's targeting their country?. If we go to war with Russia it wiil turn nucular in just a matter of time. Now the USA has to get our south American allies up to par on their weapon systems. Unfortunantly, in a heated conflict Venezuela would be first to fall. If this is ok with the people of Venezuela fine let their country fall. If it's not ok the people need to get rid of Chaves ASAP one way or another.
The Polish people have long memories and were betrayed by the Great Powers many times despite their bravery in the fight against Communism and Fascism. The American military presence in Poland is tangible evidence that the US stands for Polish freedom against Russia. Such a presence is long overdue and just in the light of the shameful betrayal of the Allies in allowing the USSR to devour eastern Poland. It sad that so much fiction exists regarding the role of the Polish people in WWII. Three facts, please, Poland did not surrender to the Nazi invaders: the people of Poland fought valiantly and fruitlessly and neither France nor Britain came to their aid in 1939 during the Nazi invasion of Poland. Two, more Polish people than any other nationality are memorialized for aiding Jews in WWII in the Garden of the Righteous (maintained by Yad Vashem) in Israel. Three, the only Nazi-occupied city that had an uprising against the Nazi invaders was Warsaw in the summer of 1944. Once again, the allies offered meagre help and sat back while the Poles fought against the Nazis and waited, giving the USSR the opportunity to seize Warsaw.
the poles did not aide the nazi's
The whole thing is scary. I wonder what the history books will write about this time.
Average Pole's view on the US elections is as ignorant as average American's idea about world geography and politics.
Those amongst Polish population who might have some view are mostly conservative, who hold naive perception that the US is still an economic superpower.
As a businessman that has been to Poland I think the missle shield is a good idea. As a tourist visitor in Poland I think that their beautiful and hospitable country must be protected, both by the shield and the NATO Alliance.
Let the EU take care over there.We have too many Americans in too many parts of the world.Its OK to help out sometime but not in everything.
The Polish people are already on our side and against Russian agressiveness. Why should we dump money there when we are hurting here? Let's think of our own people first for a change!
John Doe, or what ever your name is. You don't know your history. If the Poles were aiding the Nazis. Then explain to me why my father, who was a partisan, spent years in Nazi concentration camps.  
We need to protect those who ask to be protected. The whole idea behind alliances such as NATO is to keep people safe. We're going to be taxed anyways, regardless of what it's spent on. At least you know your tax money is going towards protecting the lives of innocents. It may conflict with Russia's view of the world; but if you have a problem with your neighbors being safe, without increasing the chance of their aggression, perhaps your motives aren't necissarily peaceful towards them.
Poland is the only country that has remained strong in the face of the rising Islamic tide that is drowning France, Spain, Italy and the U.K. Any country that faced what Poland has in its history -- only to raise itself into a "player" on the world stage has my total support: and a strong U.S. president knows when to support America's allies.
I think America should concentrate on America first and then worry about other countries.  We do not need to get involved with other countries until we fix the problems we have at home first (economy, other wars that we're fighting).  For Prof. Tyler, your jingoistic view of the world is sad and the reason we are in the mess that we're in right now.  Remember...all great empires fall.  If we don't immediately try to solve the problems at home, America will fall.  Let's keep our noses out of other countries for awhile and work on rebuilding our own.
I am an American and I say Poland, like Georgia needs protection, our protection. We cannot afford to look away from danger. There is evil in this world and evil men are still at work. The world cannot afford another attack on Poland. Poland is a free democratic nation that needs our help to sustain its young democracy. The Bush principles should live on.
John Doe-read your history the Poles fought against the Nazis and Communist longer than any other country on earth, and suffered more than any other country on earth because of it. The Poles never aided the Nazis in fact there were more Poles (many were Jewish) killed by the Nazis than any group of people on earth.
John Doe from Seattle, Washington, I got a news check for you.  It is America that aided the Nazi's (Nazis were GERMAN and AUSTRIAN) by denying entry to the US for European Jews in the 1930's and 40's.  It was the American president who refused to let them in.  And it is 46% of Americans wh want McCain.  So get your facts straight, before you sound off.  
Although I do think it is important for people to take interest in events going on outside their country, it doesn't really matter who Poles prefer in the election because they don't get to vote. The only opinion that really matters in November is the American opinion. Just stating a fact.
Joe Schabelli, Pennsylvania

Poland, Barack Obama is the only hope you have. John McCain likely will not even live another 4 years.

McCain may say he's on your side today or this morning but with him that can change in a matter of hours depending on what his cronies tell him to say. He's not his own man anymore. He's become frail with age and allows others to make his decisions for him.

With Obama you get a man true to his convictions.

With McCain you get the remnants of a man and one who has abandoned almost all of the convictions he had when he was young and stronger. He now gets pushed around everyday by his campaign staff and a woman who's second on his ticket.

Don't fool yourselves, there is really no choice between the two. Obama is the only one who you can count on.
I am an Amerian who worked for  the US in Poland and I can tell you the attitude of the politicians is to take everything they can for free from the US. US Supported Sites that were no longer required after the fall of the Soviet Union old guard were kept open just to maintain the happiness of the few.  They have expensively maintained villas with very expensive art work hanging on the walls and drink nothing but the best Vodka at the expense of the American taxpayer.  Of course they (the politicians) would love to have this extra money for their use.  The people of Poland would gain nothing and lose some of the security they have enjoyed for quite a few years.  We have no business installing missel sites in Poland.  We need to start fixing our bridges, roads and city facilities.  
I have a son and daughter-in-law living in Poland.  I would like at all costs to keep them from being blown up or taken over by the Russians again.  
To John Doe from Seattle...The Poles did not, I repeat, did not, exterminate or collaborate with extermination during WWII.  On the other hand, there was ugly treatment of the Japanese by the citizens of Seattle and other West Coast Cities in WWII.  Please look it up.  The nation of Israel has a memorial to the Poles who saved Jews during the Holocost.  The Japanese have only bitter memories of businesses seized, forced resettlement (to camps in the desert West) and many other painful examples of the hooliganism that ran rampant in Seattle from 1942 to the end of WWII.  The WW II German POWs transported to the US were treated, on the whole, better than the U.S. Citizens of Japanese descent.

Factchecker, Buffalo, NY
First of all, journalists ASKED the Poles their opinions. So, they have every right to answer. Their opinions do matter because we have made them a very important ally in our war on terror. If you don't know Poland's huge contributions to US interests then you need to educate yourself. Many in Washington consider Poland the 51st state, that is how close their relationship with our government is.
For the genius who brought up WWII, the Poles were victims of Hitler's wrath as much as the Jews. The Nazi plan was to enslave the Slavic people and make them work for Germany. In addition, the Poles are one of the few European countries who actually tried to fight the Nazis, assuming that the Allies would come to their aid. That did not happen. In addition, Churchill and Roosevelt basically gave Poland to Stalin and victimized them once again.
I'm an American living in Poland while my husband works at our diplomatic mission. It saddens me that the only dialogue some people have to contribute to this message board is arrogant, xenophobic nonsense.
John Doe?  Did you take any history or where you sleeping during class?

Let's become isolationists/pacifists again.  That's what a lot of Obama voters want to use.  It will be like the 1930's again when we ignored Germany and Japan's rise to power.  FDR goaded the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor (he also knew about the sneak attack) because he knew the American people wouldn't willingly go to war.  You can't ignore the fact that all large part of the world doesn't like us and wants to do away with us. You can't ignore all of the radical Muslims and you can't ignore Russia.

Obama is seen as week on defense and too willing to negotiate with terrorists. Obama is very naive when it comes to foreign policy and Biden's policies won't work.  The Muslim countries would love to see Obama elected because they think he is their friend.  Look at Obama's choice of fine friends- Rezko, Rev. Wright, Ayer, etc.  Obama was an angry black man growing up and has picked is friends accordingly.  He has thrown most of them under the bus you I would be wary of wanting to be Obama's friend.
If the best the Poles can think of is an increase in their economy as a result of a public pool and airport, let them built it themselves.

We need to mind our business.  America has more pressing issues such as ending the war in Iraq, and straightening out our economy.



Why do you live in Poland then Khristof or whatever your name is??? I now live here too, by choice, but I am a POLE and I am not an 'it'. I'm very interested in the US election. And guess what else, there are tons of Poles in the US who do vote because, guess what? They are also tax-paying, law-abiding US citizens. So stop complaining about Poland being 15 years behind Europe.  
Prof. James Tyler, Boston, MA   are YOU going to fight the russians for YOUR imperialistic policy?
Some Poles did collaborate with the Nazis, but after the war many Poles were involved in attacking Jewish death camp survivors when they returned home. Several thousand Jews were killed from 1945-48. Polish people in the USA (except maybe in Chicago) will not vote for Obama as many hold racist views. I know this as a native of Chicago.


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