Well...it really does bother me that people think its kinda okay to take dowry....whichever way it is...whether the gal's parents or the guy's parents.
In India, its so entangled in the system that people kill new born baby girls all because of the dowry..they cant afford to have a daughter.
Dowry is illegal,but,hey,since when did laws overtake tradition.
I remember a guy working in a bakery as a sales boy tell me mom that he is worth $5000...may not seem much to us but to people who earn $50 per month and those who have 2 to 3 daughters it sure is a huge thing.
Amongst the rich its more like a fashion statemen,fathers give houses and cars as a dowry.
In a country where the divide between the rich and the poor is widening...its mind numbingly painful to see such ostentatious show of wealth

This was interesting to me... Hmong culture has lowered the "bride's price" with changing times. (Look up Hmong if you're confused!) I have known many recently married couples who have invested into a nice ceremony and honeymoon rather than give a small fortune to her parents. It has almost become a "bad sign" to ask for money when getting married. It shows greed, selfishness, not-caring-about-the-start-of-your-children's-new-life type of thing. Sure it use to be that the more educated or more wealthier you were meant that you were more "valuable", but I'm sure somewhere along the way people got smart and realized that love mattered more than social status.

I think this article represents a very small population in Thailand, thus bias and misrepresenting.

It's an interesting read! I agree with Steve that Thai are very hospitable and nice people, having lived with them when I was schooling in England and visit them many timesduring those years.
I also have a strong believe in tradition and after 10 years in England, I am under the impression that what make us Asian different from European or American are our traditions. Throw that away and we will be no different from our "farang".
I also like the term Karen used; "Bride Price". But whichever term we used we are forgeting the most important thing in this tradition. It's the coming together of two loving people. There seems to be a lot of horror stories around, but so far none imegered except for a disgraunted John Doe, who is still waiting for his "bride price" to be returned. He sound cheated and unhappy!
Looking on the bright side, I would rather think of John having helped his bride family ride through some difficult times and provided an oppurtunity for them to bring themselve above the poverty level.
Thailand although is a developing country, is still very poor when compared to neigbour like Malaysia or Singapore. People get by with just US$100 / month! It's probably the place where you will see the most 60 year old "farang" being escorted by beautiful young girls which they call wife! Let's face it the country have more girls then man and thus having a few "farang" with young wife does not hurt the economy one bit. But one always hope that this will help the wife family progress and as long as the feeling is mutual between them, I don't see any harm in either accepting a "dowry/bride price" or having older "farang" with young Thai wife. The important thing is that everyone is happy.
Well for Miss Warangkana I wish you good luck with your future husband and hope he will not disappoint your family! Thank you & Sawadee Krup.

Good job Norman and if you still living in Khon Kean you are a lucky guy. I have to agree with you 100 % about Thai woman, if your love for her is not enough you should find some other girl. The parents are not in control of their daughter 's life, especially if they are mature and have their own life.

A Dowry is a GIFT. It doesn't carry the tag "SOLD". It is personal and private. And it is part of many Asian cultures, and of course it has been misused by many unscrupulous people. It is unfair to turn a customanry Dowry to suit your own personal feelings or tight purses.

While your observations are quaint and folksy, they are for the most part outmoded, and behind the times.

That being said, all too many foreign men pay exhorbitant sin-sod money to their Isaan semi-literate, high-school drop out bride to be's parents.  

There are a few rules of sin sod that should be followed.
1) Any children by a previous marriage makes a women by thai standards 'second hand goods' and worth not a satang.
2) Lack of education, lack of a fair job, or any skillset besides pulling rice also equates to zero sin sod.

It is sad that the alleged culture thais have is really only generations of mindless brainwashing designed to keep the classes separated.
 

I am married to a village girl from Issan (not a 'girl', she's 27).  I am from the USA and knew my wife for 15 months before we got married.

I told my wife that, first, I was marrying her, not her family.  Second, I told her that paying the 'sin sod' was like 'buying her' and that is how it would look to Americans and I would not buy a slave.  

However, I told her that when we got married (again) in Thailand, I would give her US$2000 to help pay for the wedding but I would only show her parents my bank book to prove I had enough to care for her.  There was no argument.

"I would like to know where you can buy a new Toyota Camry in Thailand for a million baht... Try almost three times that amount!"
"dingdongrb"

You must be a fool with money if you are paying B3 mil for a Camry!!!!!  Try B1.3 mil for a nicely equipped one.  LOL.  I gotta nice Yamaha scooter I'll let you have for B500k...LOL

in response to khun Kaweeka (Sent Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:33 AM),

although i was raised in an upper-middle class society; i do live (and have a serious hand-on experience) with other classes. this article, although presenting from a single POV, does portray thai society rather accurately. Not all families "sell" their chilren to the highest bidder, and certainly not all families treat their children as an asset.

if your argument should be valid, then you are presenting the exact same bias as the writer, just from different POV. although there is a significant different between bangkok and the rest of the kingdom, stereotyping them all together doesn't seem fair.

Dowry is somehow a tradition in other countries too,
but in some, it is the girl, the would be bride that has to bring in.
In Hungary for instance it is not money, but complete bedsheet set, kitchenware of 12 sets.
.....Hungarian girls marry easier than some others.....

I did research in college on Dowry practices and found it most disturbing when the parents come back years into the marriage and demand more money (dowry) for their son/daughter and if it is not paid the parents kill or take back their child.  The research also exposed what is referred to as "dowry fires", where the husband wants 'dowry' money or a divorce of sorts and sets his wife on fire if he doesn't get the money.  This practice has turned from helping the daughters parents, because daughters don't work on the farm nor grow to work and provide income to the parents, so when they marry the husband pays a "lost wage" for the daughter to help the parents, usually farmers that are usually in debt to landowners and moneylenders.  This practice has become extortion, especially for the families that do not have to rely on this income to survive and the daughters have been more capable of bringing money into the home.

To all you American who think you have money and would like to go to Thailand and buy yourself a bride....you are in a rude awakening. Yes, the will marry you and come back to the state with you, and just when you things are fine they will pick up and leave your a**. Thanks for the Sin Sod! You can not but love in any part of the world....it just happen.

Imam Zia,

What happens when the marriage is second, third, or fourth?  Does the dowry increase as the groom is getting used up?  thanks

Sam

I once was involved with a Thai lady whom lived in Hong Kong for work, but has a family in the Northeast section of Thailand near the Laos border. We were about to plan our marriage until the Dowry issue came up which I hadn't known about. I learned this through the dating/marriage internet service. Not ony was it a culture shock for me as a Westerner in the USA, but it was a very demeaning treatment towards women that you would put a price on a female human being. Out of respect for her parents' tradition, I offered a fairly reasonably "gift" in terms of US Dollars (I wasn't making a lot of money, but reasonably average for a Californian) of which sums to a lump amount of $5,000. Converting that into Thai Baht is alot of money for the Thais. They accepted it, although I was not happy about their family putting a slavery for sale price on a truly ethical, honest, and loving lady. About a month later, She told me that her parents had begun pressuring her hard for more money to increase their "face competition" of a bigger dowry, and the amount of demand rose to an additional $20,000 more making the total sum of $25,000. I thought this was insane and totally inhumane. I tried to explain her that in my western culture and American societal laws (or rules) that "buying" brides is the same as buying slaves. I explained that the American history back in time when the Blacks/African Americans were brought to America as slaves and the owners sold the slaves for money. This was abolished by former US President Abraham Lincoln whom ended the slavery in US History. The US Constitution has an amendment in the Federal laws that makes buying brides the same as buying slaves ILLEGAL. IT is very dehumanizing and inhumane. Even if the Thai parents agreed to give the money back to the Bride and Groom, still the concept of this is no different. The became a problem for me and my would be wife I was going to marry. She argued with her parents of this western value. She was willing to marry me without the dowry. She doesn't care about the dowry or the face value of the dowry because she realized that you canNOT put a price on the soulmate human being and you canNOT put a price on the true love. You canNOT buy love or happiness. Her parents insisted on the total sum of USD $25,000 or the parents would disown their daughter whom I was going to marry. This had a very painfully sad heartbreaking ending. We did not get married. Her parents would not allow her to marry. I met another woman in the USA instead. I will never forget this lady, her name is Lek. She will always be in my life and memory forever. So, upon coming across this topic, I am glad to be able to share my experience with those of you of similar experience involving second world Asian women and their culture that which is tied to the dowry tradition. There are some Thais out there that do not ask for dowries, but ask that the groom keep their word for taking good care of their bride/daughters as a lifetime promise and committment in good health and happiness is all that matters to most Thais. Thais are sensitive people and they are very good people i have ever experience during one of my trips to Thailand. It's a very different world in Thailand and their culture is different that one must understand by self-studying the country, their government system, basic laws, rights, respect, culture, women, children and their way of life. If you don't like it or expect to complain, then do NOT go there or you will greatly insult their culture. The dowry is begining to change based on my experience with my would be future wife,Lek. Lek didn't care about the money because she is a modern generation person and her parents are very old schooled generation (her parents are elderly). The modern younger generation are slowly coming to realizing what dowry does to them and their self-worth as female human beings. Their influence will some day in the future, or near future have an impact on their older generation members and hopefully it will open them up to realizing the value of their Thai daughters; their daughters are invaluably worth more than what you put a currency amount on their souls. No amount of money can replace their daughters. The westerners needs to take the responsibility of educating their would be thai brides and their thai parents that if their parents value their thai daughters more than anything in the world, then they should not put a price on their daughters and sell them in exchange for material value that would simply disappear in a matter of seconds, but cannot replace the life of a loved one. If westerners are looking for a fast marriage overseas, think twice again, about the consequences of buying a bride from the USA, The US INS may not like it which can spell legal troubles for US westerners going there to "buy" brides. The US Federal laws, as most aren't aware of prohibits the purchasing of humans for slavery. They are watching and will give you problems if you come home to the US with a new bride, it will get the US officials suspicious and westerner men may face criminal charges. If I were you, I would build the relationship first and educate them about western/USA culture and basic USA laws, and the American way of life. Most Thais, more importantly, think that Americans are financially indispensable, which is not true. The cost of living far outweighs than Thailand's cost of living. For an American dollar you can go a long way there for as little money because the Bahts are much lower in value, they would sterotype you as a very wealthy westerner. Being in Thailand with US money, yes, indeed, does make you much richer than being in the USA as a break even point. Thais don't know this well. They need to be made aware that when the Thais come to the USA, their cost of living will be a shock and they are not used to working hard to make a decent living in American whereas Thailand and the Phillipines work less for less money. They don't work as hard and they don't suffer as badly and the westerner would in the USA if the Westerner in the US doesn't work at all, the westerner could end up homeless on the street. It is the US westerners' responsibilities to teach the Thais of the westerner's way of life that are not as easy as they (Thais) might think or assume.

My Thai wedding plans was called off for good based on the dowry demand and the would be bride being caught in a cross-fire between myself and her parents. Our cultural tradition clashed, and I didn't want to "buy" her , but rather to earn her love and trust to me, and the laws in the US prohibits me from practicing the "human for sale" concept which was abolished by former President Abraham Lincoln and that law holds steadfastly in the US Constitution. If you attempt to do this yourself, then get yourself a very good and expensive defense attorney, because the Feds and the INS are going to watching what you bring back in the US and the registration documents will show them what you are doing. I studed Women, Sex Roles, and Women's Culture in college- about women of all over the world and their way of life, sex roles, and cultural differences. This gives me a much higher consciousness of respect for females worldwide. Don't buy them, earn their trust and love that's worth more than money or material value.

I have married 2 Thai women, the first was only in it for the money. The second was wonderful and we enjoy a happy life together here in America today.  A Sin sod is a Thai custom for a long time. You are NOT buying a human being, just paying the mother for the milk she supplied her daughter, for the education that she received and things like that. If the Thai woman has a child, children, or has been married before then the dowry can be reduced or eliminated all together. You just need to talk with the family. Thai men have to pay just the same so it is true. The family in Thailand are more than likely very poor and to have their daughter marry an American does so much for the family in the village. It only makes their life better. The woman that you marry will more than over pay you back with love and devotion 500%. Thai women are raised to take care of thier husband. I am glad to say I have a Thai wife and I can not see life without her. After all how much do you spend on a wedding here? Consider how much a wedding costs in Thailand, mine was $1500 total and every person from the village was there and we had fun for 2 days. Not everyone can say they were married in Thailand, you will NOT forget it ever.

I am an African born Canadian now living in and Married to an Asian. I have seen it all. There are pros and cons on each side. In Africa dowry shows ability to provide and commitment. Human beings don't value anything that costs nothing, that why we see see many throw away marriages/divorces in the west. The process of dowry negotiations goes through stages which give both families opportunities to really know each others characteristics. Besides all that it has always been nothing but a token of appreciation. Some aAfrican tribes still require as many as 10 cows. whatever it is someone's daughter is always priceless. As for those those stingy westerners out there who can't part with with a token of a few dollars to honour the parents, try somewhere else.

I paid dowry - i am indian marrried to a thai - so reverse for me but I thought it was  good custom to follow. My wife and I decided how much it would be not her parents, they did not ask for any amount, any frankly any amount would have been acceptable. In total it was THB 99,999, 4 rai land costing THB 100,000 and 9 Baht gold bars (Thais like the number 9). My wife kept the gold, the land is owned by my wife but her father farms it and keeps any rice/profit he makes from it, and money was kept by her parents, we did not ask for or want it back. I don't see what is the big deal to oppose this, I felt it was a good custom - same with the 9 monks who came to our wedding.

I married at Thai women 4 years ago. We discussed this custom. I told her and she understood that I was not in a position to pay a large sum of money. That I had enough money to make us happy and buy a new house in america I could not spend 20,000 USD on wedding. She understood, and her mother understood. We still plan to "marry" in Thailand. It is understood that the wedding will be tradiitnal with gold and cash, but all will be returned.Maybe in the next year that will change to not including these things, but I understand a traditional, I am just not willing to pay for it.

When I attended a Thai wedding last year, the groom's family provided a dowry to the bride's family, but the bride's family returned the money to the couple during the gift exchanging ceremony later in the wedding. My Thai friend explained that that was becoming the custom, for the dowry exchange to take place for symbolic measure but the dowry given to the couple to start their lives together, in which case it isn't so objectionable at all.

It is hysterical and very American that this blog is on discussing brides and dowries and all of the sudden people pop in and start debating the price of a Toyota and how you can buy one and ship it overseas for less than the price of buying it for 1 million bhat.  How goofy.

Quick question for anyone who could shed light on the matter..

I am in the process of getting engaged to my thai girlfriend (who, i'm reluctant to admit, used to be a bar-girl working in pattaya before we met). Her parents have asked for a sin-sod of 2,000,000 baht (approximately $67,000). Not only that, they have asked for it to be paid before or on the day of the engagement, which is coming up soon. Firstly, I was under the impression that the sin-sod was not due to be paid until the wedding day? At this point in time, i was merely looking to get engaged to my girlfriend, and then eventually marry her when i managed to save up enough to pay the sin-sod. What was merely supposed to be an act of commitment, seems to be turning into something more than just that.

Also, after reading some posts from others above, it seems that 2,000,000 baht ($67,000 USD) is a rather large amount for an ex-bar-girl whose family live up-country. I am beginning to think there is something more to the story than meets the eye (perhaps her family has incurred gambling debts, or are into some other kind of addiction or craze for which they are in desperate need of cash). I don't for a minute want to pursue this relationship further if this is the case, and most certainly don't want to be paying any kind of sin-sod to fuel this kind of behavior.

My doubts were raised further upon learning that no thai guy would in their right mind would expect to pay that kind of money for a girl that used to be a prostitute, let alone even think of marrying a girl from that kind of background. If this is the case, do you think my girlfriend's parents are trying to extort money from me because they know i'm a foreigner and could perhaps afford to pay such a large amount? Do thai parents have different standards for thai and foreign suitors?

I know sin-sods can run into the millions of dollars amongst upper-class thais, but this girl used to be a whore for christ's sake. if anything, her parents should be grateful to me for even considering marrying her and taking her off their hands.

any insight on the matter would be most appreciated.

thanks.

i see why a lot of ppl hate this sort of thing. and most of them are men. don't EVER have girls in the US then. the "tradition" of the bride's parents paying for the wedding IS going by the wayside in many circles, but hasn't gone away completely, yet. dowries, "bride price," paying for the wedding are ALL things that look like we're selling our daughters away to the highest bidder. i say, if he can't show me that he can afford to take care of her NOW, he can't have her! i've been doing it myself for YEARS and i'm just fine. what's his problem? of course, in my daughter's case she'd been taking care of HERSELF for a while, but the point remains the same. :p and i'd do my level headed best to throw her whatever type of wedding she wanted. why? b/c she's my daughter and i love her and she deserves it. :)

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