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When is someone officially dead?

Posted: Friday, April 04, 2008 9:27 AM
Filed Under:

TEL AVIV, Israel – Israelis in desperate need of an organ transplant can now breathe a little easier. A new law passed last week in the Israeli Knesset (parliament) will hopefully help bridge the gulf between Orthodox and secular Jews on the controversial issue of organ donation and help pave the way for more transplants.

An issue which has long been a sticking point in the organ transplant debate in Israel has been the question of when a person is considered to be officially dead. The new law hopes to assuage the concerns of Orthodox Jews by introducing new guidelines for doctors and families to follow if there is an opportunity for a donation.

Despite the change, there is still a great deal of opposition among Orthodox Jews. Beni Moshe, who is number one on the list of people waiting for a new lung, fears it may already be too late for him.

The 46-year-old Moshe, who is married and the father of three, suffers from a severe lung disease which means he is attached to an oxygen tank 24/7.

"I hope the new law will encourage people to donate, I have been waiting since August for a transplant and feel I’m floating between life and death," Moshe told Haaretz newspaper.

Timing critical
For transplants to be effective, medical staff must have access to a donor’s organs the minute a person is pronounced brain dead. At that point doctors can use the heart, the lungs and the liver.

However, up until last week, the medical definition of brain dead was not accepted by Orthodox Jews who believe a person is dead only when their heart stops beating, which is often too late for doctors to use the organs.

As a result, organ donors in Israel are rare – amounting to only 4 percent of the population – leaving 1,000 patients in Israel who are currently waiting for an organ donation. 

New protocol
Rabbi Yuval Sherlo, a vocal advocate for organ donation, is trying to help assuage the fears of Orthodox Jews about the process. 

Sherlo explained that most Orthodox Jews distrust doctors and are afraid they will be too quick to proclaim a relative is dead in order to take the organs. Also, many Orthodox families want a relative’s body to be buried as intact as possible, with no defects.   

Sherlo is appealing to Orthodox Jews to adhere to the new protocol approved by the Knesset. The new law states that once a person is pronounced brain dead and is a candidate for organ donation, the following procedure must be followed: 

  • A high-ranking doctor working independently from the attending physician will approach the family to explain the new protocol and make sure that the guidelines for transplant set by a special committee of rabbis is being adhered to. 
  • The attending doctor will evaluate the patient’s situation and act accordingly, explaining the guidelines to the family again and ultimately giving them the right to refuse the whole procedure altogether if they ask not to go ahead.

But in Israel nothing is easy. Orthodox Jews are themselves divided along ethnic lines. The Orthodox Zionist movement is on board with the new law and the green light was also given by the Sephardic Jews. The real problem lies with the Ashkenazy movement, which adamantly rejected the new law, claiming that taking any organ from a person whose heart is still beating is equal to bloodshed.

It looks like the fate of Moshe, and more patients like him, lies largely with Orthodox leaders, who are expected to call upon their followers to accept the new ruling and agree to donate their relatives’ organs to save the lives of others.

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they are really dead when the coroner says
As Coroner I must aver, I thoroughly examined her ... and she's not only merely dead, but really most sincerely dead.
What about the guy in Oklahoma who was declared brain dead but came back to life? The doctor said it was faulty equipment but if it can happen once it can happen many many times. How do you know you arent killing someone when you start taking their organs if that major test of life can be faulty? I believed in organ donation up until I read that story.
this is a good argument as to why religion and government should not be mixed.
S'OK, mon. People opt out of being organ donors for all sorts of reasons, religious and otherwise. Just support those who chose to donate, and make the process as equitable as possible.
There are Christians, such as myself, who also believe that a person is dead only when his heart stops beating, because this indicates that the soul has departed the body.  In addition to the Bible teaching us this, we know that this is true because there have been "brain dead" persons who have regained consciousness.  The recent experience of Zach Dunlap provides an example.  (You can read about it at http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/24/NotDead.ap/index.html  Sorry, MSNBC.  I couldn't find the story on your Web site.)  Thus, to remove vital organs from a person before this point is effectively to kill him.
I had been an organ donor, something you can elect on your Oregon drivers license, since the program began. I have terminated that in light of recent stories about doctors prematurely declaring death to harvest organs for filthy rich patients. If I could, I would go "re-enlist" but would deny my oregans to anyone making mroe than $100,000 a year or anyone with a net worth in excess of $1,000,000. The wealthy snakes of this country, the Wall Street types, investors, and corporate officers, don't deserve to live.
So, what are the new guidelines?
Wow, Mr. Brooks. Where did you learn such hate. You are a despicable human being, to say that one person doesn't deserve to live over another. You cannot blame all of those that make money for the faults and greed of some. And you cannot lump me in with that group, I am only 22 years old and make less than half of that $100,000 cutoff that you claim. You are a disgrace and I am truly appalled.
I am sorry that you believe anyone making over $100,000 is a snake.  My wife is a caring pharmacist who is constantly looking for mistakes made that can be fatal if missed by the doctors and patients.  According to you (Mike Brooks), she should not be rewarded for standing on her feet for 13 hours a day trying to make a difference in someone's life.  She is also the nicest person that I have ever met with no enemies, except for you.
I work in a hospital and have been present for brain death tests.  They are very vigorous and two are performed to ensure accuracy.  The tests are not faulty.  Bad doctors are the ones to blame for pronouncing that guy who wasn't truly brain dead.  As for your organs going to rich people, that is absolutely false.  Once someone is pronounced brain dead, the organ donation network takes over and must give the organs to the people highest on the list.  The doctor that pronounced brain death has no involvement in the process and nurses, respiratory therapists, and other doctors are also present for brain death tests to ensure accuracy. Please, everyone become an organ donor and give the gift of life.
There was this guy in Oregon who was pronounced dead, and they were just about to harvest his organs when one of his relatives poked him with a knife because he felt the guy wasn't dead.

He was alive.

I don't agree with organ harvesting etc... because basically they get the organs when the person is brain dead, not when his heart has stopped, meaning the person is not dead in the first place and you are taking a wild risk.

The only solution would be stem cell research and cloning to provide artificial organs etc...
Its sad to think that more and more people are removing themselves from donation lists.
Organ donations are a way to save human lives.  I would never remove myself from a donation list and have complete faith my family, friends and doctors are smart enough to figure out if I'm still alive or not.  
I hope I'm never in a positon where my life depends on some of you.
"The wealthy snakes of this country, the Wall Street types, investors, and corporate officers, don't deserve to live. "

Seriously?  Wealthy or successful people don't deserve to live?  What if they built it up themselves?  I am nowhere near being considered rich by any means, and I still realize the absolutely large degree of stupidity it took to make that statement.
I believed in organ donation until 2 things happened:

1. My economics professor at Washington State University pointed out that your organs must be removed while you are still alive for the organs to be of any use at all, and,

2. I met a young man who had been in a vegetative state (a 'brain dead' coma) for 13 YEARS....and had then woken up, and become a (relatively) productive member of society again. True, he lived in a halfway house, but he was absolutely and most certainly a person with everything that goes with that.

Barring the presence of irreparable injury that renders life or improvement utterly impossible, I cannot imagine a situation where we KNOW that the brain will not recover. Even 'flatline' and coma are  not irreversible.  

I am not an organ donor. Because you don't get to stipulate "Only in the event of catastrophic and irreparable injury." It's a 'yes/no' question. And that's just not good enough for me.
Have you seen Monkey Bone?? That guy had half of his organs already out "Chris Kattan" and Brandon Frasier took over his body... broken neck and all... Who says your not dead?? Hope you can't buy body parts over there like on the black market... boy that would suck.. now you would have to worry that you are going to come back from Isreal with a T-shirt that say's "I went to Isreal, got drugged, lost a kidney, woke up in a bathtub full of ice, and all I got was this stupid T-shirt" gees that was alot to think up while enjoying my lunch...
Above all else, guard your heart,
      for it is the wellspring of life.

Proverbs 4:23 (New International Version)

Here's how everyone can help solve this horrific problem...DONATE your "spare" kidney NOW, while you are still living.  

What?  You haven't heard?  You only need one kidney to live a long and healthy life.  What's more, if you are unfortunate enough to end up with kidney disease, your "spare" kidney will do you absolutely NO GOOD as EVERYONE with kidney disease loses BOTH kidneys.  In that case, your best defense is offense.  By giving away your spare kidney NOW, while it still has value, then perhaps you will encourage another kind soul to give you their spare should you need it due to kidney disease.
you are all missing the point. The rabbis are ruling bases on laws given from god that these people are alive. how can you know better than g-d we conlrols life. and why shouldnt the elected representitives of the people who want to listen to the rabbis not vote like them?
The positive side is that the organs would be going to someone who ia actually going to live-keeping people alive just to keep them "alive" is torture. Breathing on a vent,tube feeedings,iv drugs to maintain blood pressure-the people who wake up from a persistant vegatative state are rare-Most hospitals have ethics committee along with the organ donation people, who work with the patients family and their wishes, so it is a controlled process.(accountalble)
ORGAN DONATION IS CLOSE TO MY HEART. MY BEST FRIEND DIED WAITING ON A LIVER TRANSPORT. UNTIL YOU GO THOUGH SOMETHING LIKE THIS, IT'S EASY TO VIEW IT AND NOT WANT TO DO IT. I THINK THE SITUATION W/ ZACH DUNLAP WAS AN ISOLATED INCIDENT. DON'T GIVE UP ON ORGAN DONATION THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT NEED IT TO SAVE THERE LIVES. TALK TO YOUR FAMILIES SO THEY KNOW YOUR WISHES. I WOULD STILL WITHOUT A DOUBT DONATE MY ORGANS AND MY FAMILY KNOWS IT.
In America, which is not governed by any religion  (supposedly) , the definition of brain death is defined by law and by medical practice;  that is the way it should be. Israel has a different government.

As someone else wrote, once brain death occurs, if the decedent (a death certificate is issued w/ brain death) is a donor, the organ transplant group goes to work.
The founding fathers wrote about the danger of mixing religion and government and our Constitution specifically prohibits such laws. I am thankful to live in America.
Oh for Heavens sake, people!  Do you realize the number of organ donations that occur and the miniscule (by comparison) of instances like this?  It's like saying you'll never fly in a plane because it might crash!  Or you'll never swim becuase you might drown!  Statistically you are far better off to become a donor and save multiple lives with your or your loved one's organs.  I can't help but wonder if you were on the "waiting list" side of this argument if you'd feel the same way?  I for one have been on a donor's list for my organs, marrow, and regularly give blood and plasma.  I have warned my family that if they don't donate my organs when I die, I'll come back and haunt them!  :-)
As the father of a young woman who has had five wonderful years of life since receiving a double lung transplant, I feel I absolutely must comment on this.

As the son of man who died from mesothelioma while I held his hand as he took his last breaths, I know what it feels like to stand there while someone you deeply love is dying and there is no hope for a miracle.

I can feel empathy for almost every argument from both sides of this argument.  The exception is Mr. Brooks.  To you sir, I suggest you learn about the transplant process and then maybe, just maybe you will realize that the transplant process in this country takes absolutely no interest in how much money a recipient has, or makes.  The only criteria is how sick are they.  I watched a lot of people got through the transplant process in the three months that I cared for my daughter before and after her surgery.  I can only remember one that made $100,000 and it sure was not my daughter or I.

In my case, I have written a living will which specifies exactly under what conditions my family can authorize life support to be withdrawn.  That same document specifically says that at that moment any organ that I have can be harvested in the hopes that I can save another’s life.

I only hope that the politicians will stay out of it and let the doctors and my family follow my wishes.

For the record, my daughters new lungs are failing now, and if, and this is a big if,  she can get strong enough to face the ordeal again, I pray that someone somewhere has also written a living will that will save her life once again.

As for that concept of not donating because you want to go to heaven unblemished, your body does not go anywhere when you die, except into a hole in the ground or a crematorium’s flames.  Your soul, which can never be touched by any surgeon’s scalpel, is what might go to heaven.  
It is everyone's choice to be a donor or not. But, if those who choose to not be a donor get in a situation where they need an organ you will see how quickly they change their thinking. The way I see it is if I die I am not using it anyway. I might as well make someone else happy.
what is involved in cloning. From what I have read this too would be killing another.
I believe death happens when the heart stops beating. I am on the CA Donor Registry and believe that those they select are done so are without discrimination of any kind.

However, the Oregon man who feels that people of financial means should be excluded from receiving transplants is sad and troubling. In America it is no surprise that due to the high cost of medicine and health care even the well to do likely could not afford both the surgery and lifetime aftercare.  People with the financial means you mentioned are not considered wealthy in today's criteria. All people are deserving of a chance at life regardless of financial status. Judging based on personal opinion or the inappropriate actions of a few from some sensationalized news source is just plain ignorant.
Ignoring the unscrupulous, wouldn't a doctor who was concerned for his own soul want religious direction as to what constituted death? The issue is not just limited to the death of the patient but also impacts the conscience of the doctor. Although this matter might be adjudicated by the government, a G-d fearing person must look to his religious dictates and not those of the government.
Donating your organs is one of the greatest gifts you can give to someone.  In death only the spirit survives and the body begins to decay including the organs.  If you fail to donate them someone who had a chance to live may not be far behind.  

I have a relative that, through the generosity of another, received a new heart.  That was one of the most unselfish acts that a grieving family could ever do.

Donate your organs, they will be of no use to you once the brain is gone because, you as the person everyone knew no longer exists.  And yes I am an organ donor along with everyone in my family.  It is my hope that when I don't need the body parts anymore that someone else can have a better life!
My husband's organs were donated and I have regretted it every minute since.  Not because I didn't want to help people in need.  But because the organ/tissue donation people took more than were authorized (they were told small bones and took his pelvis).  And they sent me a very clinical checklist - mailed the day BEFORE his funeral.  How would you like to get that in the mail the day you buried what was left of your husband???
Please stop trying to play God,by giving each other organs.We are going to have a lot to pay for when Jesus returns.If God wants us to live we will.God don,t make mistakes.He gave each person the organ he wanted us to have.When our time is up,it is up.
The man declared dead before "coming back to life" was incorrectly screened. The diagnosis was inconsistant with the American Academy of Neurology's criteria of brain death.  Namely in that the doctors declared him dead before the prescribed amount of time had passed. This was a case of mistaken (and premature) diagnosis.
Additionally, there are many cases in which brain electrical activity has been known to cease or drop below normally detectable levels and then be restored.
Brain death is the complete cessation of all brain activity (electrical, blood flow, etc). When this occurs, it is unconscionable to preserve the function of organs that could save the lives of others.
I think the Drs. shoild figure out a way to use organs from deceased people, not tale them from brain dead people, the brain is only part of a person. If they can shock a heaart back, then they can use a heart that has stopped. My daughter was a doner,but I didn't let them because they were going to take organs before she was deceased. Find another way. fNfot many familys can do this.
Hey Taylor; Doctors make those kinds of decisions all the time and nobody considers them "despicable human being". I always get a kick out of one self righteous and judgmental hypocrite calling someone else a self righteous and judgmental hypocrite.
When a person is brain dead, there's no coming back from that.  Even if your heart is still beating, our brain is what makes us a person. Without it, we're just flesh and bone.  Nothing more.  Religion or not, the heart is nothing but a muscle.  There's no connection between our heart and our soul. If anything, it would have to be the brain.  If someone was mistakenly declared brain dead and was actually alive, that's got to be a one in a million mistake.  There are numerous checks in place to make sure nothing like that happens.  The doctor doesn't even know the patient is an organ donor, so that organ harvesting does not happen.   Of course there are unscrupulous doctors, but a very small number.  

I'm appalled at the opinions of some people with respect to organ donation. Utterly appalled.  Thousands and thousands of people are waiting in the US, while uninformed or misinformed people decide that they don't care enough about their fellow man to give them the greatest gift a person could ever possibly receive.  My 30 year old best friend's life was saved by a heart transplant last year, and every day she's so, so thankful to be here.  Her donor is an absolute hero to her.  

I can guarantee you that the transplant waiting list is on a first come first served basis and has no consideration for how much money you have.  All that matters is how long you've been listed, where you are, and how sick you are. Period. Check out the info on optn.org.  There's some staggering data on there.

Personally, I'm listed as an organ donor, and I think the best move the country could make would be to change the laws so that only people listed as organ donors could be organ recepients. Maybe then thousands of people wouldn't die every day waiting.  

It blows my mind that with the technology we have that can replace someone's heart with the heart of another person, that the limiting factor to the success of organ donation is the number of donors. People die every second of every day.  We should have an organ surplus.  But we don't. It's a sad commentary on society.

You just never know if it's going to be you on that list.  Do you want to hear about how there aren't enough organs while you're on your death bed? I don't.

When making the decision to be an organ donor - do some actual research. Don't listen to what you hear on TV or what other people say.  In fact, here's a link: http://www.donatelife.com

Make up your mind only when you have the facts.  Better yet, go talk to someone lying in a hopsital bed waiting for a transplant. I guarantee that it will affect you.  At least as a donor, I know that when I die, at least part of me will live on and help someone else.

Well maybe when we get that idiot out of the White House and Stop letting the Regilous Zelots run our lives and use our God Given Brains to know that Organ donation and Stem Cells transplant and research is needed to help save the lives of us all and start donating the Organ of Our Love One so that we will always have a part of our Love Ones Present we will get rid of Some of the Hurt that goes on in this world
I am an organ and bone marrow and long bone Donnor
I am an organ donor. I like to think that in the event I am declared brain-dead both the unknown recipients and my family can continue to live when I am gone. I would not want the years to pass while I languished in a bed causing my family pain and guilt.  
Taylor, he's from Oregon!  'nuff said
"If God wants us to live we will.God don,t make mistakes."

Agreed, he gave us the knowledge that makes organ transplantation possible. It would be  wrong not to use all the knowledge we were given to save lives. I trust that the incidence of being incorrectly pronounced dead is very low and that the benefits far outweigh the risks.  
Hooray Susan T!!
SDA, a question, what is the mechanism by which blood flow would stop reaching the brain (in your listed criteria)  I know there is a blood/brain barrier in life...but..
I was told that you signed the contract you're fighting in ( Country ). Loss life and loss of donors. I signed the donor card and anyone one who can use what is left is welcome to it. Those who oppose it are the first ones to want a transplant because no one wants to die if it can be prevented.Between the military and my own abuse, my offal should be used just like any other USDA approved offal.
To be honest, If I wind up badly injured enough that the docs can't decide if I am dead or not It suits me for them to go ahead and declare me dead and give my organs to someone else.  I have already told my family that if I ever wind up in a vegetative state they are to PULL THE PLUG, and donate my organs.
To the person who said:  

"My daughter was a doner, but I didn't let them because they were going to take organs before she was deceased."  

I can't believe you did not honor what was basicly your daughter's final request!
Doctors and hospitals get paid for their contribution to organ transplants. I will consider donating my organs when donors get some kind of compensation. Doctors put fluids in people before they are dead, and they declare early brain-death because the doctor expects to make money from the transplant.
Be glad you don't live in Communist China where state prisoners are exacuted and their oragans are sold by the state!!!!!
I used to believe in organ donation until someone close to me needed a heart.  My father who was 48 at the time had several heart attacks and the doctors told us that the only way he would live is if he was given a heart transplant.  Of course we jumped at the chance wanting to see a family member live, but when the board that reviewed his case denied us we were devastated.  Their reason?  He was too much of a risk for a transplant at 48 and that he wouldnt live long enough to get full use out of the heart.  Ever since that day I will never and I do mean never give any organs for a transplant because of how cold hearted those people can be.  
I think the Drs. shoild figure out a way to use organs from deceased people, not tale them from brain dead people, the brain is only part of a person. If they can shock a heaart back, then they can use a heart that has stopped. My daughter was a doner,but I didn't let them because they were going to take organs before she was deceased. Find another way. fNfot many familys can do this.

millieww@hotmail.com (Sent Friday, April 04, 2008 4:33 PM)

I think its sad that you didn't follow your daughters wishes...I am a donor and if my family didn't release my organs...I think I'd come back and haunt them.
I have a very personal stake in this discussion, since my daughter received a heart transplant when she was 17 years old (8 years ago.)  My daughter and I speak in our region about the obvious benefits of organ donation. There are few more sacred moments in life than when someone is being declared dead for the purpose of organ donation.  But due to the shortage of available organs, there are actually efforts at the national level to expand the definition of when organs can be harvested.  The process must stand the highest and most vigorous scrutiny possible.  Then we can put an end to the urban legends that have become real-life tragedies in the past couple of years.
Some numbers to keep in mind if you're worried about people dying unnecessarily:

1. Donated organs save ~ 22,000 people every year.

2. Medical mistakes injure ~ One Million (1,000,000) Americans every year and roughly 120,000 die from those injuries/mistakes.

We need to do better with both of the above.

Organ transplants carry their own risks to the recipients.  Everything from organ rejection to infections to cancer.

Latest story is from SAG HARBOR, N.Y., (story) dated April 1, 2008 - Fifteen-year-old Alex Koehne died and his organs were donated to four people. Two died and two are in chemotherapy right now due to rare and fast-moving lymphoma cancer that wasn't recognized when he died and wasn't caught/screened when organs were harvested.





Donation of organs is nobody's business but themselves without any pressure whatsoever.  I have no clue how such a decision can be made ahead of time.  And, I have no clue how many thousands (millions) of lives have been taken because a decision was made too quickly.  Organ replacement should no longer rely on other human sacrifices.

The real problem is the continued lack of funding in all medical arenas.  The capitalistic system is the best devised in the history of man.  However, even best systems have flaws.  The government keeps passing bills in the belief that lawyers are right.  More recently, the government has been passing laws with the belief that religious people know what is best.

Neither happens to be the case, and that is why we spend billions on oil fighting a war, we slow down medical research, we never solve issues such as social security funding.  Similarly, that is why we are damaging this country with biofuel expenses that are drastically driving up food, food and living costs when we should be focused on solar.  The oil companies apparently can't make much money on solar.  I could go on.

Perhaps we need to look at the past success of challenging our children?  Our children proposed finding the new world and our nation was born sometime later.  Our children were challenged to stop a war and they unleashed the most powerful weapon then know to man.  Our children were challenged to go to space and produced an explosion of micro technology from minis to PC to laptops to cell phone to ipods.  And, our children were finally challenged to do for millions what government had taken billions to do - go to space.

Perhaps what we need to do is say, "here's XXX millions of dollars for the first company to grow a replacement heart".  It would probably be done in a couple years and heart donations would no longer be needed.  

Instead, in so many ways, government spends billions nickel-ing and dime-ing our government designated  research organizations to death.  I'll use NASA as the example.  If NASA started today to build SpaceShipOne, it would cost billions and take far more years than the private-sector used to get the job done.  On the other end, government decides in its infinite wisdom to stick with old technology for decades and then decides to throw 8,000 people out of work in a few years.

It makes no sense!  Instead government should say, "we have no idea how to get . . . (whatever) . . . done.  We want it and here's the challenge.  Meet the challenge and you get paid this ungodly amount of money."  And, the government spends less.  Taxes can be cut and government services improved.

I will never ever believe in big government.  It did not even see 9/11 coming.  It does not see the possibilities for life-extension.  It is not capable of planning past the next election cycle.  If we continue to accept without changing the best economic system in the world, no one in the universe will ever know that humans existed.  And, that would be a far bigger shame than the fact we need American Idol to increase donations for those truly in need in this world.  

Sorry I don't belive in transplant, if your organs were meant to be transplanted, why do you have to take anti rejection drugs, it is because GOD and or nature did not intend for this to happen


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