ABOUT WORLD BLOG

NBC News World Blog aims to provide a dynamic look at world events and trends -- both big and small -- from NBC News correspondents, producers, and bureaus around the world. Online entries -- from text to video -- will explore news events and how they are shaping our world.

Regular contributors include NBC News correspondents, producers and staff based in bureaus across the world and on assignment.

Click here to read more about the journalists behind NBC News World Blog.



The U.S. Embassy's ‘Abu Ghraib’

Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 8:25 AM
Filed Under:

By Richard Engel, Middle East bureau chief

Diplomats are supposed to make friends. 

They are supposed to use their, well, diplomatic skills to resolve conflicts, advance foreign policy and improve relations with foreign cultures. 

It's hard to do that when you're surrounded by tattooed, gun-waving, badge-wearing guards – eyeless behind sun glasses – accused of wantonly killing Iraqis who get too close. 

Of course, the security firm that protects embassy staff here, Blackwater, maintains it agents have consistently acted to protect its clients in what is an undeniably dangerous environment. There are several ongoing investigations, and we're hearing that at least one (led by Blackwater's main employer, the State Department) may exonerate the company. 

Iraq's interior ministry has already concluded Blackwater was guilty of "murder" when its guards killed 11 Iraqis in western Baghdad on Sept. 16.

So there may well be conflicting official reports of the incident, one American, several Iraqi. Fog of war. Others will claim a cover up.

Reputation proceeds them
The fact, however, remains Blackwater is perceived to be more aggressive than other security firms here.

Agents’ cars zigzag across the roads, guns pointed out the back. If a car gets too close, Blackwater agents often throw water bottles at its windshield. It's supposed to be a "non-lethal" warning. Better to have a water bottle hit you than be shot. But some Blackwater guards have been freezing the bottles so they crack the windshields.

Blackwater often keeps the same defensive posture even within the Green Zone, alienating just about everyone, their colleagues included.

One of the interior ministry officials involved in the investigation was himself hit by one of Blackwater's water bottle projectiles. He's still annoyed and insulted. The case is personal. He wants to see Blackwater go down. Many security contractors here do as well.

"This is worse than Abu Ghraib for us. It is going to be the Abu Ghraib of our industry," bemoaned one contractor, worried Blackwater's incident is going to ruin his business.

Another contractor said, "The big question is, why did the State Department allow Blackwater to behave this way? They were the clients.  If they didn't like the way Blackwater operated, why didn't they say anything?  Silence is consent."

No love lost by U.S. military
Some U.S. military commanders similarly have no love for the company, which they say "complicates their battle space."

One U.S. commander working in the area where the Sept. 16 shooting took place told me, "It is one of the quietest areas in northwest Baghdad, as far as kinetic activity is concerned. Usually a lot of traffic. I would question the training of this PSD [Personal Security Detail]. We have trained our guys to hold fire and get used to driving in traffic. I have never heard of this number of civilians being killed in an EOF [Escalation Of Force]. We have had one EOF fatality in ten months in sector."

MAIN PAGE

Email this EMAIL THIS

Comments

The U.S. government has always used mercenaries and other third parties as killers in their wars for cheap raw materials and lucrative markets. It's what they did with terrorists such as the 'contras' and the terrorists Cuban mafia in Miami (remember Posada Carriles?). And it helps keep the 'official troop count' down. U.S. imperialism hasn't changed in 110 years so get used to it; and get your kids ready.

Not Surprised, San Leandro, Calif (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:48 AM)

Its a WAR. In wars , and for all Ive seen, almost all theatres experience more civillian , than military casualties. Sometimes its because of mistaken identity , sometimes its because of a lack of discipline. Sometimes its because one or more factions is trying to initiate scenarios where civillians are more likely to die. One thing is sure. Its always abhorent to see innocents slaughtered.

Unfortunately, we will now never really know what happened on that road. There can be no proper investigation. There isnt even an autopsy that can confirm how any one civillian died or what munitions actually killed them. It is widely rummored and alledged that Blackwater opperates aggressively, and there are a few well documented cases that lend at least some valid credence to that claim, so its easy to blame without proof that they probably did something wrong. Its easy for Blackwaters supporters to say that because insuragents like to construct scenarios where blame for death can be put on others, that the civillian family in the car may have been a human shield. The bottom line is: none of it is proven.

Probably what happened is the driver , after the IED went off , drove blindly , and in panic, away from the detonation and small arms fire, straight at the Blackwater convoy. That would make them look like a suicide run to anyone defending the convoy. Probably, with the current modus opperandi of Blackwater staff , there was little in the way of hesitation about what to do about an unkown contact careening towards their position after incoming fire.

The bottom line is where hostile forces exchange fire , there is always the possibility of innocent death. The only way to end it is to remove the combatants. Unfortunately, the Iraqis are reliant on others for security , and who can blame them. If the US leaves , it would be them having to deal with the blame game for all these instances. They seem both unable, and unwilling to take on this charge. Its always convenient to let responsibility pass to others. In Saddams day , they would have killed everyone possibly involved , and then everyone who complained about it. Its a better situation now when the security forces at least profess to be avoiding causing unnecessary death.

As for all the bleeding of sympathy and outrage, dont sit from your armchair and profess to 'know' anything about it. The only certianty is its a tragedy. No one else is stepping up to do the job so we will all have to accept the current situation as it stands unless others would like to offer a better solution, and be ready to commit the resources and manpower to back it up.

N.A. Victoria, BC (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:50 AM)

perhaps bush and cheney can ask congress for just a little more, say $2B, to handle the bad PR of blackwater, etc.? while they're cutting healthcare for kids, food and drug safety, etc.........

don phoenix (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:52 AM)

go do a little research on blackwater BEFORE you talk about them and act like an expert. there is a literal torrent of information available on blackwater and kyle is right from what i have seen, and no i am not affilated with blackwater in any way shape or form. think about what you would do if you wanted to defeat the U.S. in iraq. shooting at armed soldiers and hiding in a crowd preferably behind a crowd of women and children and waiting for them to take the heat for it. do you want to explain to a soldier why he has to stand there and get shot at and he can't return fire? how about the fact that some of those women and children volunteer to get shot? how far would you go to get someone out of your hometown? these men are highly trained individuals who would be considred masters of their trade if it were any other and they dont like to take innocent life any more than you do, their job is to PROTECT other people from those that don't care about innocent or not.

matt scott, concord, north carolina (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:54 AM)

Lita, You state there are more than 150,000 Blackwater employees in Iraq.  I would think thier number of deaths would rival that of U.S. Army, and it would be reported.  They are not hired to just protect embassy.  They will protect any who hire, including Iraqi gvmt officials.  It doesn't hurt active duty morale, Blackwater personnel have experience, which demands higher pay, just like many other lines of work.  And if you believe there are enough of them to round up huge numbers of U.S. citizens under the pretense of 'bird flu' you should start writing fiction.

Travis, apparently Blackwater ROE is more effective than U.S. Army at keeping people alive.  We don't here about them dying, or those they protect anywhere near as often as the military.  Do you enjoy
ridiculing the military?  Do you ridicule all who don't do something perfectly?

Chris, Your opinion about Blackwater having a negative impact in Iraq sounds like your crying, just as anyone over there.  They are effective at what they do, others are jealous.  

To all; don't rush to conclusions, I believe that no one would want to be convicted based on heresay and emotion.  Without facts such as which weapons fired the rounds killing the civilians, then it boils down to who can whip up mob frenzy.  And in the face of mob frenzy, I want experienced, tough, Blackwater.

Craig Wilmoth, Guthrie, OK (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:55 AM)

we have more than enough troops to field in iraq but the gov't hires these people???? the schmuks have run amuck. only gonna get worse so hold on.

dave (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:58 AM)

The comparrisons to Abu Ghraib, the comment about hiding behind sunglasses all the above references to the type of "training" these guys receive, brings to mind the "Lucifer Effect" by Phillip Zimbardo, a book I think should be required reading at the high school level.
The problems arrise more from the strategy being implemented for "security" than the idividuals trying to carry it out.
Willie Callison has it right, hire locally.

The US should hire the entire population of Iraq to provide their own security.
We offer to pay every Iraqi over the age of six for every day that goes by without a bombing, assassination or kidnapping for an entire year. At the end of that year, we withdraw our troops.

This plan would give the Iraqi people tangible and clearly defined reasons to work together:
1. US occupation over in 365 days.
2. A year of relative peace.
3. A decent income.
4. A sense of control over their own lives.

Why would this plan work? How much sympathy or apathy will the Iraqis have for those taking money out of their pockets?

This plan does not require a mea culpa or even a change of course on the part of the Bush administration. It’s success would just quietly make the current approach obsolete.

The infrastructure necessary to carry out the plan is a worthwhile investment on its own and relatively cheap.

Any additional investment in the plan is entirely dependent on results.

There is really no argument against trying it.

Simply making an honest effort to implement this plan, regardless of its success rate, would create a sea change in the way America is perceived in that part of the world. How often has “Satan” spent billions in the cause of peace and lifting the poor out of poverty?

For further details, visit:
iraqon5dollarsaday.blogspot.com





 

Douglas Hamar, Portland, OR (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:58 AM)

ashamed republican (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:17 AM) says "Yet many among us still ask why "they" hate us. They don't....they hate our foreign policies...dhuu."

I agree bud. It really gets my blood boiling when I hear our wonderful president say "They hate our freedom."

That makes absolutely no sense! Why, would a group (al Qaeda that is, not Iraq) of repressed people sacrifice their own lives and resources just so Americans can be just as miserable as they are?  If we were truly just over here, doin our own thing and not hurting anybody why would they care?

Oh that's right! It's Islamic fundamentalism! They want to wrap every woman in a Burka and murder all the gays! Our free wheeling lifestyle is just too much for their patriarchal sensibilities!  (I guess the FCC and the Evengelical Neocons have something in common).

But wait Al' Qaeda! What about Bangkok? Good Lord they think the only way anyone can achieve the height of feminine beauty is to be a man in sexy women's clothing!!  Oh the humanity!!

Or is it because we've screwed them over with our foreign policy?

As Judge Judy would say, "The story that makes the most sense is probably the right one." And then she goes on to yell at stupid people for lying...  

Unafraid, Denver, CO (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:01 PM)

Perhaps if the American people would stop blindly accepting the media stories as absolute truth, act like humans instead of mindless cattle, and did some logical research, they would see that this whole case against Blackwater is baseless. Remember that the first stories that came out correctly mentioned that one of the BW vehicles had to be towed away due to a roadside bomb attack and followup ambush. Then later, these "supposed" eyewitnesses said that BW was never attacked. So how do you explain the vehicle that had to be towed out? Remembe how the Iraqi lawyer eyewitness originally stated that he was driving in the opposite direction of BW and said he was shot in the back, but also that he had witnessed the entire incident. How did we witness the entire incident as he was driving in the opposite direction? Think people; be more than simpletons who believe everything shoveled at you.

JB, Oakland, CA (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:05 PM)

Blackwater deserves to lose this contract.  I have seen videos they made of themselves shooting indiscriminately and laughing it up.  I don't understand why Blackwater apologists feel this company should enjoy somewhere in the neighborhood of 10x the pay of regular forces along with none of the oversight.  Support OUR troops not the mercenary troops the neo-cons love to use so much exactly because of their lack of accountability.  Remember these clowns are not our soldiers.  They are mercs plain and simple and bad ones at that.  

James Thomas, Denver, CO (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:06 PM)

Ashamed Republican, If we wanted to steal resources,
why don't we take out more govts, where oil is plentiful?  Why would we care to patrol any city in Iraq?  We should just protect oil fields, pipelines and ports, adopt even tougher ROE than Blackwater.
Your ignornant and not even close to being a Republican.  Can't believe they posted your comment!!!

Craig Wilmoth, Guthrie, OK (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:08 PM)

This is not an isolated incident for Blackwater.  These contractor/ mercenaries have no supervision and imunity from prosecution.  The real soldiers make a fraction of the pay of these civilians.  Yet the army has to deal with the fallout when these idiots piss off the locals.
We don't have a draft because Bush knows if he tried to draft there would be more protests against the war, so he contracts, enriching his friends and endangering our troops.
Don't take my word for it, read up on Blackwater and listen to the real soldiers who can't stand these goons.

Jon Martz, Portland, OR (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:15 PM)

I am not sure we should really compare the two incidents in the same light. While they are both embarassments, I do not feel we should pretend to be naive about what happens in war. Abu Ghraib whether you like it or not was an embarassment because it got caught on film. There US Soldiers under orders were conducting psych tactics to break prisioners for information. With Blackwater, they are the overpaid sheriff that is out of control.

Perhaps it should be required that Blackwater and other PSD's need to wear a completely differant uniform. The travesty here is that the Iraqi's and the rest of the world just see an American in uniform. To them, the American Military and PSD's look alike. This creates problems for our soldiers that are trying to both secure the country and just stay alive. It is a written fact that PSD's are not held liable under Iraqi or American law. They are payed in some cases 10 times as much as our troops who have to be there and of course they are going to be calious in their treatment of the Iraqis. The State Department has made them above the law and our troops suffer for it. While I am no fan of the current state of the war or it's management, I am a fan of my country and our troops. If they have to be there, lets not add to the danger level they live with by adding fuel like Blackwater to the fire. They have enough to deal with.

Chris, Sacramento, CA (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:20 PM)

If Iraq wants them out. They should leave. All I have heard is bad news since I have heard of them.  They want to hold a gun join the army. All contractors need to be pulled out They make more than our troops which is not fair.

Eric KY (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:21 PM)

I was just out there myself this afternoon in the red zone. I don't ever question what my PSD's do, or when, or why. Again, nothing happened, just like always for the last 3 1/2 years. But maybe someday something will happen and the reaction from the team protecting me will, hopefully, be precise, proper and adequate. If they err, however, I would prefer an overreaction as opposed to an underrreaction. It's probably just my personal preference for staying alive, however, that motivates me to say that.

Mike, Houston, TX (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:21 PM)

In my opinion, the soldiers are not the ones to lay the blame upon.  Clearly Donald Rumsfeld praised their efforts.  It was unclear to the soldiers (whom weren't trained for that position)what exactly was to be done.  The CIA and private contractors were giving them their orders. The HBO special was an eye opener.  The Iraq's detained in the prison deserved extreme punishment and I don't feel sorry for them. Our own prisons are not nearly tough enough. These are bad people and terrorists! The ones who we should not blame are our soldiers. Bring them home. Bush, have you never heard if you don't learn from history it repeats itself?  What have you got us into?

Heather, Pueblo CO (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:23 PM)

Davies, your right, and the proof is that most of the guys from southern states defend the Blackwatwr actions.

Henry, San Ysidro , CA (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:28 PM)

First of all I am not an American - but a close Canadian neighbour. I will neither defend nor implicate Blackwater gaurds until reliable intel from the actual events is published by a non bias organization.
What I do have to say is that the American officials in Iraq should be protected by there own soldiers - not a civilian security force especially when they are on meanouvers.
Civilian security forces should not be deployed into the melee of combat versus civilian roles in populated areas. This is what soldiers are trained for right.
What I do have to say is that a life is a life - no matter what race , religion or color. The human race as a whole, should wake and realize that we are all implicated in death of humanity.
I believe that the USA as one of the most powerful nations on the planet - should turn its war machine on those that slaughter the innocent - no matter where they are globaly.
More should be invested in the cost of humanity than the cost of oil. Because it is humanity and all of us as equals that will ensure the survival of mankind. battles

Canadian Dave (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:38 PM)

The curent US Administration sacrifices not only the rights and dignity of Iraqi's (with Blackwater, coruption, arrogance and greed) but also that of its own US citizens, for its own "selfish desires."-Pres. Ahmedenijad said it best yesterday at the UN and it's true!!! Think about that Mr. Bush, when you are officially retired nextyear, to the delight of the enitre world!....

George Bushwacked (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:39 PM)

What happened to our "Well Regulated Militia" or has this too gone the way of government without a Constitution.  I get nervous when we are dependent on uncontrolled mercenaries to fight in a war representing the USA.  No wonder our image and credibility are at an all time low around the globe.

Robert, Upstate NY (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:42 PM)

It is a war.  Shoot at the bodyguards (all former special ops guys, America's best) and they shoot back.  Don't want to get shot?  Don't shoot at Blackwater guys.  Remember the Blackwater boys that the Iraquis mutilated and hung from a bridge?  Bottom line; quit your crying.  If we had shot more Viet Cong we'd have won that one.  How about we win this one?  Says former Viet Nam era Marine and present day "mercenary".  Regarding that word; (mercenary) so were the Flying Tigers, the most sucessful fighter squadron in history.  They killed a lot of Japanese. I don't see any history books that call them "mercenaries". Wake up!      

Bud Stapleton, Atlanta, GA (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:46 PM)

Thank you for the excellent journalism, blog though it may be. I appreciate the snapshot view of events and opinions from the spot where it's all taking place.  You did a good job of withholding your personal opinion, which has to be extremely hard to do.  Thanks again for the information, and for your continued professionalism.

Lesley Guerin, Joppa, AL (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:47 PM)

I am 67 & am deeply worried about my country. Most comments here are angry & condescending. Yes, people have often called politians names,until the elections are over. Now we are dividing & looking down our noses at each other. We seem to want to be suspect of each other. How many people do any of you know who would not help you if you were in trouble?  If there is more than 1 you are in a sad state. Let's get more people out there voting. Voting is our power for change. We need to work together so the powers in Washington stop getting the idea they are royalty & realize they are the servants.  Elect them & stay on their backs so they vote as we expect,not as they decide.Make them stop being secretive! Make them keep those lobbists out of our business.  

L Lanter St Paul,IN (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:47 PM)

In order to clarify, I do not nor have I ever worked for Blackwater, as I mentioned, I am neither for nor against them, I was merely trying to point out that there were some inconsistencies (sp?) with the accounts of what happened.  I was told that the IED that initiated the ambush was a White Phosphorous munition.  Dont know how many folks have seen WP and its effects first hand but White Phosphorous is the thing that nightmares are made of - at least you can put out gasoline, WP keeps buring as long as there is o2 present or the chemical composition changes.  Like getting hit with a blanket of road flares that dont go out even with water.

Everyone seems to also be ignoring the fact that a Blackwater vehicle was destroyed in the action and had to be towed away.  How did this happen if there was nobody firing at the convoy and there was no IED.
The holes and the fire just didnt appear magically.

"Ali Baba" is the term used by both the Iraqis and Ameicans over there to classify a member of the many insurgent groups.  If you ask is someone is Al Qaeda and they are not Al Qaeda but another terror group, the Iraqis will say no but neglect to tell you that they are an insurgent.  They do respond to "Ali Baba" so it is the mutually understood generic term for an insurgent. Much like Blackwater is the generic term for PSD details over there.

I used to be a member of the military and served in Iraq in 2003.  I have old buddies that work as security contractors over there right now that I keep in touch with.  They work as security contractors over there because why do for $31k per year for the military what you can get paid $200k to do?  Same risk, higher reward, less mess.  If someone offered you the opportunity to do for 8x's your current pay, the same job you are doing right now, would you?  

The other big misunderstanding is that when the media says there are over 100,000 contractors over there, they dont mean all contractors are PSD guys.  If Blackwater is the largest and only has 1000 guys over there, then thats a lot of security companies.  The rest are logistics,construction, infrastructure, stuff like that.  I hate it when folks make it out to be a massive mercenary army.

Just wanted to clarify any miscontrued conclusions of my post and answer to any charges of bigotry, redneckism (by the way, redneck was a term given to union coal miners up north who wore a red bandana around their neck to identify them as a union worker)or any other charges as dastardly as being from Texas

Kyle, San Antonio TX (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:47 PM)

First of all I am not an American - but a close Canadian neighbour. I will neither defend nor implicate Blackwater gaurds until reliable intel from the actual events is published by a non bias organization.
What I do have to say is that the American officials in Iraq should be protected by there own soldiers - not a civilian security force especially when they are on meanouvers.
Civilian security forces should not be deployed into the melee of combat versus civilian roles in populated areas. This is what soldiers are trained for right.
What I do have to say is that a life is a life - no matter what race , religion or color. The human race as a whole, should wake and realize that we are all implicated in death of humanity.
I believe that the USA as one of the most powerful nations on the planet - should turn its war machine on those that slaughter the innocent - no matter where they are globaly.
More should be invested in the cost of humanity than the cost of oil. Because it is humanity and all of us as equals that will ensure the survival of mankind.

Canadian Dave, Surrey Canada (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:49 PM)

And what about the "security guards" closer to home.  August 16, 2006, New York State employees, "Peace" officers, grabbed me on my return from a walk.  (i was writing a novel on terrorism....)  They had stalked me and family members for years  They grabbed me, applied handcuffs, maliciously tightened, and shouted that I was "drinking,"  "suicidal," "having a stroke" for the benefit of passersby.  One of them called the NYPD.  When they arrived their coleagues poured out of the office and surrounded the police misleading and confusing them.  While this was going on the abductors dragged me into an illegal-use ambulance.  The NYPD ordered the remova of cuffs, but they took their time about it.  Eventually a legit EMS supervisor came, and, confused, believing it to be a legit call,  tried to bully me into going to the emergency room.  This would legitimise her unit.  The NYPD agreed but for different reasons - evidentiary proof of non drinking, drugging or stroke.  As is, my usually low BP was 188/100 on arrival.  I was seriously dehydrated but they would not give me water.  There has been a huge cover up since then including an attempt to break idown my door  (nov 2, 2006) and drag me out.  Sexual groping was part of their act.  The cover up appears to be enjoined by superiors at the NYPD 114th and Commissioner Kelly refuses to respond.  A senior NYC official said this was part of an apartment grab, but it was also racist and vindictive.  I have been trying to get professional policing for my community and supported long term citizens and seniors bullied out of their apartments.
There's a whole lot more, but ten years ago, following a premeditated attempt on my son's life, this same bunch of felons obstructed and prevented appropriate investigation into the events,  and hounded my son, putting him under arrest on false charges on numerous occasions.  Some of those charges were filed by the local co-ordinator for the Board of Elections who keeps her position despite numerous complaints of harassment and beligerence.  With her association with NY Stte sponsored terror-felons I have not been able to vote in the last two elections.  An associate from JTTF whom I had been advising since 2001 agreed with my attorneys to "get out of there."  There's  a long history of civil and human rights abuses on Roosevelt Island, but being white, little hope of redress.  Now the seniors and disabled building is being convered to luxury condos and the ambos are outside the building day and night.  I call it the Nazification of NYC/NY State, and from initially supporting the engagement in Iraq am now deeply concerned re our own lack of moral imperativ there and at home.

D McNamara (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:54 PM)

In the Army we were told to 'Lead by example'. My father taught me to 'Do unto others'. All through my growing years I was taught, We, (the US), were the beacon, standard of everything that was right! But in this post- 9-11 world, we've seemed to have thrown our morals out with the falling buildings. At first it seemed like a 'just cause'. But I'm really lossing faith in our motives.

Ron, Encino, CA (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:56 PM)

"If their intentions are legitimate, and they are truly trying to help the "war" effort, then they should be more than willing to operate with the same rules of engagement as our own brave US Military Forces!  If a US Serviceman were in this same position, he would be ridiculed publicly and tried in a military courtroom."

Travis.....I completely agree...let them stand up in court and defend their actions to their peers.
(their peers being The US Servicemen and women Iraq)
Let them judge their actions.
They are more qualified than most of us at home.
Unless you've been in a similar(combat)situation you really have no room to judge these people from what you read in the media.
I've seen first hand the tatics used against our troops...and most of them our civilized mind would call dispicable.
I appulade the restraint shown by most of our forces there.
I hope those "cowboys" have to stand up and explain themselves one day.

JudgeDredd (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:06 PM)

Far too many liberals and leftists along with their elected representatives and untrustworthy media hacks would prefer to see the nation harmed rather than admit that the Bush administration has been justified in it's war efforts or that any Republican or conservative program has been successful and good for the country. The knee-jerk reflex to convict Blackwater without a fair hearing is just another example of the narrow minds and vindictive nature of just such people. They serve nobody but themselves and at pretty much any cost. Then again, this is NBC. Why would on expect any better?

John Don't (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:07 PM)

Somehow I feel if we had left Saddam alive and not bothered invading the country, a lot of these people (thousands of Iraqis and Americans) would still be alive. US govt needs to know that invading another country for whatever reason, be if communism, to increase sphere of influence, fight terrorism, expand market for commerce and oil is not going to work. Would Americans agree if US govt enforced something on its own people thats supposed to make them a more free and healthy person ? Of course not. Nobody likes something being thrust upon them even if its freedom or promise of good life. If I were a Iraqi, I would prefer living under a dictator with my entire family of  brothers, parents, nieces and nephews safe and alive than living free with half of my family dead or dislocated. Blackwater or the US Army the Iraqis see everyone as Americans. Whether we withdraw now or after 10 yrs there are going to be scores of Iraqis wanting revenge for generations to come. Its like holding a Tiger by its tail. If you let go of the tail, the Tiger will maul you. If you dont, you will still get mauled.  The smart thing to do is wiggle out of this mess once and for all and concentrate in improving Americans life, by making healthcare available to all and improving education and internal security.

Mr. Conscience, Albany, Ny (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:12 PM)

First- The enemy we face has started a war of  extermination. The enemy has been known to use suicide tactics and videotaped beheadings. This is their accepted strategy. Also the movement into crowds of innocents to use as their sheilds is accepted by them.
Second- Investigation is difficult as the families of deceased will claim the member is innocent WITH or WITHOUT knowledge of his loyalty. Burial practice also hurts the drive for an autopsy- people are not stupid enough to keep a dead body around for a while.
Third- The reason this conflict is so expensive is
1. Our medicine's cost and quality have risen (due to the focus on the best care irregardless of cost, cost increases) 2. We use the best most precise weapons in existence, and not cheap inaccurate weapons like nuclear weapons(cheap in terms of destroyed area)
Third- This is because of 1. Any reasonable precaution which could save our men is acceptable as long as it does not entail slaughter 2. We seem to be the most concerned society (Western Society) about non-hostile deaths.
Fourth- It is eminently reasonable that the harsh conditions and reports of enemies' barbaric behaviour can cause normal people to react overly harshly, especially with an emergency attitude.
Fifth- Until our enemy started killing Sunnis their actions were acceptable to the Sunnis due to the reciprocal fighting. Therefore we should not stoop to the enemies' level but place reasonable standards for proof- maybe troops using special ammo? demand an autopsy if there is an accusation? BEFORE WE assume WE are the enemy.

REMEMBER the first gulf war was about oil- Saddam's anger at a gulf competiter, WE were helping an ally. Now we enforce that peace treaty and international law against Saddam, who we removed before he got illegal weapons, And the US President, who gave speaches perhaps more emotional than the various senators is accused of saying Saddam had nuclear weapons.
He may be led by Blair, he may be led by your vice-president, he may speak in his country accent unclearly, but he fought American overreaction against the muslim community after 9/11/2001 and has since shown restrain from attacking Pakistan's border provinces. Those provinces are known as "Talibanistan" by our soldiers. Pakistan has nuclear weapons. Bush knows caution.

Bush's Original Small Attack Force Leaves Quikly Plan used all the wisdom concerning men in Arabia but DID NOT Anticipate a deviation from the plan.
That is why your blackwater flows in Iraq- The only other plan increases security forces to ensure peace for the political nightmare to awaken to compromise, once the Provocateur enemy is eliminated.

Our greatest fear is not the subway bombs but the Bomb, because we hate indiscriminate killing and would disarm ourselves of them if not for determent of other's usage.

James Hans (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:24 PM)

I find it very interesting that most of the comments agree that the government and press cannot be trusted.  The source of the problems with Iraq started with the first and is kept viable by the latter.  We have the best government and media money can buy, and unfortunately only the 'Elite' can afford the price.  The rest of us get to pay with our blood.  Young men fight old men's wars.  If the politicians who agree to go to war were required to lead the charge, strap on their gear and head for the war zone, we would not be in Iraq today.  And now they are beating the war drums of Iran.  How much blood does America have left to give?  Our children are under educated, many are without health care, our bridges are collapsing, thousands are becoming homeless, jobs are outsourced, social security is getting another rape job and the 'politicians' get yet another wage increase and plush retirement which equals their full pay and full health coverage FOREVER.  Billions have been spent on this illegal war while Americans go hungry and homeless.  Then the illegal government of OUR country hands us the BILL to pay.  If my neighbor went out and bought new appliances and handed me the bill I would first tell him "YOU DID NOT ASK ME IF I WANTED TO BUY YOU THIS STUFF", and then I would tell him "PAY IT YOURSELF".  Bush and Gang never asked me if I wanted to pay for a war.....how about any of you, did he ask you? And here is another confusing but interesting fact. The United States of America (government) became an independent corporate in 1871 via a Presidential Legislative Act, Forty-first Congress, Session 111 - Chapter 62, page 49.  Now here is the crux, who do the elected officials work for?  Who do they agree with?  Who signs their checks?  So far I don't see you or me in this equation; do you?  So with that in mind, who does Blackwater work for, who signs their checks?  Regarding the billion dollars they received, why is that part of the cost of war we are expected to pay, when in fact they work for the corporate government which please remember, do not work for us.  When was the last time government acted like an EMPLOYEE?  Remember what Eisenhower said about the Industrial (same as corporate) Military Complex!  The UNITED STATES FEDERAL CORPORATION is the paymaster for the Blackwater 'industrial military' which may very well be the 'private military' soon to knock on the doors of those who have 'indirectly' paid for their services....YOU AND ME.  And why, well if we don't keep our mouths shut, who knows what will come in the dark of night.  Am I a conspiracy theorist?  No.  And I am not an Ostridge either.

Lena, Midland, Michigan

Lena (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:27 PM)

We are going to have a lot to apologize for, if and when we leave Iraq.  Unfortunately, we will be judged on the actions of a few, rather than on any of the good will cultivated by the many.  We have thousands of good people over there, and they are being overshadowed by crap like this.

Btw - Richard, safe travels to you and yours.

lnp, maryland, usa (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:36 PM)

Bob of D.C. maybe you should take you ball and go home, President Bush didn't start this war, the four hijacked aircraft of Sept 11th and the murder of over 3000 innocent men,women, and children did. I haven't forgotten nor will I.  I believe that if our country would have done something after the bombing of the U.S. embassy's and the attack on the USS Cole as well as several other attacks on the U.S. years before insted of turning our backs (well you probably voted for The Clinton Administration).I believe that we should send the message that we will not sit back and take it on the chin. The media is in my opinion is hurting the United States globally with their lack of responsiblity printing sensitve things for political gain on the left, making the current administration look bad. Nothing but complaints and mud slinging....What about solutions? I havent heard of any except to bring home the troops, thats what they think the voters want to here for 2008.

Darrell, Seattle (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:36 PM)

Since when did war become a football game with so many ridiculous rules. The enemy chooses not to observe the rules so why should we? War is an ugly thing and should only be used as a last resort because of this reason. However we are in a war like it or not. So do we wus out and lose credibility with the rest of the world (more than we have already) or do we take the gloves off hammer them and leave with a clear victory. Come on, I mean in WWII we were carpet bombing civillian population centers routinely and they were the "Great generation" now we are expected to fight a war with our hands tied behind our backs?? What gives? With the current ROE we are set up to lose. War is ugly by nature. So let it be so. 50K more troops, less media interference and a little violence (on our part) and we are outta there in 6 mos.

JD (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:37 PM)

If our government paid our troops better and American people support and respect our troops more, there will be more Americans want to joint the service, them maybe We won't need Black Water. How ever they are the people risk their life and taking the other function our troops are tight up to do, they do die just like our troops do, yes they do make more money and yes they act tough. Have you been Iraq? It is so easy to make a judgment

Virginia (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:38 PM)

WHO OWNS BLACK WATER?Trace the money.

dennis williams tampa fl (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:46 PM)

How surpising is it that the Blackwater Security forces are renegades who won't listen to advice?  Who in the current administration does that remind one of?  

Frank , Colorado Springs, CO (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:49 PM)

Davies, your right, and the proof is that most of the guys from southern states defend the Blackwatwr actions.
Henry, San Ysidro , CA (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:28 PM)

how did you come to that conclusion?I'm southern and I don't defend them-hell,I don't think we should of ever gone to Iraq,Bin Laden wasn't there.

dennis tampa fl (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:50 PM)

Well in Britain the more liberal party gathered more blame for Iraq. So British conservatives are the greater critics of the war.
But in America the Liberal party has more emotional investiment in the peace at all costs movement. This movement condemned Clinton's raid on Afganistan after they bombed the navy boat.
So even our justified reaction against an enemy, with criticisism, benifits that party. The allies of that party benefit as well from the diminishment of the opposition party.
So if we want to blame geography....

hans (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:51 PM)

Before you get too carried away and irate about how the media distorts or fabricates, think about this.  The Dept of State has told Blackwater not to respond to Congressional inquiries about the incident, the Iraqi police cannot interrogate those implicated, and the cold hard fact is that guilty people mostly lie.  The State Department has a vested interest in covering this up because as the contracting office they might be culpable if it were found that they sanctioned or condoned criminal behavior or exercised insufficient oversight.
Secondly, serving and working with the military for the last 30 years has made me (and any sentient being) aware that there are thrill seeker type A's in special ops organizations.  The fact that some of them left the service for very high paying civilian gigs shouldn't surprise anyone.  Being able to operate without legal repercussions is just icing on the cake.  Without impugning the entire group, get a grip if you don't think it is happening!
I truly don't think the press is out to smear Blackwater, but who doesn't get some satisfaction at seeing malefactors get served some justice?  And there is plenty of data to support that Blackwater and others have been getting away with this kind of behavior for quite a while.
To the fool who denigrated my fellow veteran, you are beneath contempt.  To the fool who thinks that the USMC is running a clean trial in the matter of the Marines who ran amok and killed 24 unarmed civilian women, men, and children in Haditha, you, sir, are both ignorant and gullible.  They did the crime, but as is sadly the case in war, the victors get to hold the war crimes trials.

Keenan Kline, Santa Rosa Beach, FL (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:53 PM)

When we here about one of these people the description of their history is that they were a Sergeant in the military with around 13 years of service.  Is it a coincidence that one can’t stay in the Army after about 13 years of service if one has not been promoted past the rank of Sergeant (E5)?  I think not, I think most are lowlife misfits that the military didn’t want.

Dick Pratt, Mtown, IA (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:56 PM)

The majority of you people are incredibly naive. Whether you support the war or not, Blackwater has done an exceptional job guarding state department officials (and others). You watch a video on YouTube of people that despise Blackwater and automatically think they are ruthless killers. Take into account the majority of these men are ex-military commandos; they don't kill indiscriminately, they are incredibly bright and I sincerely feel they are being unfairly highlighted in an incident with required the use of lethal force. Those of you who can't recognize the unbalanced media spotlight need to start thinking critically and stop bashing people you don't even know in situations you know absolutely nothing about.

Colin, Salt Lake City, UT (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:00 PM)

The Bush/Cheney/Rove/Wolfowitz/Rumsfeld... cabal relies on fear to stay in power.

How do they get us to be afraid?  Primarily by bullying the 'enemy'.  

This 'war on terror' did not start just after 9/11.  In fact, 9/11 was the retaliation for our prior bullying.  For about 50 years, the Israelis have been our 'proxy' in the Middle East, doing all sorts of pushing and shoving until the 'foe' retaliates.  

This reads a lot like a schoolyard or hallway brawl where a few 'big shots' push the 'new kid on the block' until he fights back.  

The recent stories about the 'baiting' of the 'insurgents' by planting explosives, wires... digging holes... and waiting in the alleys to attack as soon as the 'bait' is taken demonstrates the insanity of continuing this conflict.   Sociopaths like Dick Cheney encourage this behavior and will try to cover it up by getting others to do the 'dirty work'.

First caught were the 'innocent' GIs at Abu Ghraib, but first and foremost it has been people from a nation that in Presidential spin always 'has a right to defend itself'.  

Cheney recently wanted Israel to be our 'scapegoat' and attack Iran.

Blackwater et al. have become our 'proxy' fighters and, without enforcing control over their actions, these groups have been able to pull off the 'bullying' and subsequent slaughter without being held responsible.
   
If you think you're not being bullied also, just examine all the restrictions - small jabs - our leaders have taken at us and our personal freedoms via the Patriot Act.

It's no small wonder that the President has refused to sign legislation making us responsible to judgements of the World Court.

Just return to your school days and remember the petty 'push and shove' episodes that led to fights and injury.  This is all so childish - and our current leaders need to grow up or face lifetime incarceration.

Bernie C. Lowell,MA (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:04 PM)

Blackwater might mostly hire wanna-be-cops, power hungry individuals with mentally unstable minds. Maybe Blackwater administrators do not screen their applicants well. It is easy to slip thru the cracks.

I am recently retired from law enforcement. I know some law enforcement personnel who have said that the Abu Ghraib incidents were justified. Add this way of thinking to the inciting comments made, at the time, by similar thinking individuals in the CIA, a powerful organization, and you have all the ingredients for failure.

These contractors must be supervised.

We know that controlled experiments have shown that when people are placed in positions of authority, a great number of them will become abusive.

I am one of those who does not become abusive. But, I do know many who do. And, when they are discovered, the solution is to remove them from their position, and no one should cover for them because they will do it again. It is in their blood.

Blackwater must leave Iraq because there are no excuses for what it has done. It is too bad, but, it seems that most of Blackwater employees think and act the same way.

I insist that all of Blackwater must leave Iraq, because those Blackwater employees who do not condone what other Blackwater employees did or do, are guilty anyway. They should have stepped forward and said something even if it was going to cost them their popularity. Those individuals should have remembered that "Many wrong things happen when good men do nothing."

Blackwater has behaved like many people in authority behave in other countries.

It is true that similar behavior does occur in the United States too; but, hopefully, we punish those individuals forthwith, when they are caught.

Ed Mora, Chino, Calfiornia (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:06 PM)

Most of the comments, I am fairly sure, come from armchair heros. I served in VN and to think about your  firezone when you are under fire and thinking about the sitiuation at the same most ends in death. Blackwater possibly made a mistake, evean a big one, however all you armchair warriors are commenting on a subject you know or have very little knowledge about If any of the comments come from Vetrans, let them so identify themselves.. Go there do that then come back and talk about it. This COL made the comment no Escalation in X monthe, Sounds like he may be GREEN in this area. / ARMY RETIRED

Larry Kittrell (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:44 PM)

Blackwater?  What did you expect, other than a gang of mercenaries who are out to make a lot of money and maybe, just maybe, get a chance to shoot and kill some people and get away with it.  That some victims may be innocent is of no concern to people like Blackwater.  Shame on us for allowing this stinking mess in Iraq to reach the point it has.  Sickening.  Revolting.  But about what I expected, once the flag-waving subsided.
Hemersam

james sharp (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:47 PM)

I think the whole issue should be investigated thoroughly!  Having said that I will add that I cannot imagine how many of these types of scenarios are the result of and driven by necessary split second decisions!  Think about that next time you have to decide between paper or plastic, Coke or Pepsi!  I will!

Brent, KY (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:48 PM)

It is a 'known' - the more people that get involved in a 'chain of command', the more difficult communication becomes.  

On technicalities, Blackwater has been employed by the state Department - and not the DOD.

Is there any law regulating 'guards'?  Are 'guards' supposed to be involved in combat?

Secretary Rice is 'dragging her heels' at giving the Senate the information about Blackwater that Senator Waxman has requested.

Under 'smoke and mirrors', we have yet another 'proxy fighter' in the Blackwater group.  Will Blackwater ever be revealed as a covert 'baiter' - planting 'evidence of bombs' to justify the subsequent slaughter of the 'takers'?

Of course, no direct connection to our military will ever be made - and the little tricks we've used to keep this senseless war going will die in a barrage of delay - legalese and security 'whiteout'.

Bernie C., Lowell, MA (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:52 PM)

To the above commenter who would just love to see Blackwater come to the USA:  It would be easier if you just moved to the police state of your choice.  That way, you could enjoy the junta atmosphere and America would be left for Americans.

Tom, Washington (Sent Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:54 PM)



SEND A COMMENT

PLEASE READ: All comments must be approved before appearing in the thread; time and space constraints prevent all comments from appearing. We will only approve comments that are directly related to the blog, use appropriate language and are not attacking the comments of others.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):

Your name, city and state (John Doe, Seattle, Wash.): 

 Your e-mail address (jdoe@msnbc.com):

Your website (it's okay if you don't have one):

Remember me? (We'll keep it private)

TRACKBACKS

Trackbacks are links to weblogs that reference this post. Like comments, trackbacks do not appear until approved by us. The trackback URL for this post is: http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/trackback.aspx?PostID=379929

ON LOCATION

More World Blog

Recent Posts:

Archives:

Categories:

Syndicate This Site

Add World Blog to your news reader:
live.com xml
myyahoo msn
bloglines newsgator
google

External Links

Interactive

Fight for Iraq
Learn more about the ethnic, religious and political power plays in and around Iraq during a briefing of the region led by NBC’s Richard Engel.

DAILY NIGHTLY

The Daily Nightly
The blog of "NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams" features a daily post from the broadcast's anchor and managing editor, as well as contributions from correspondents and producers around the world. Go behind-the-scenes and learn how news is gathered and produced for the broadcast.

MSNBC Weblogs