The issue of freedom is an universal one. Those who put forward the official party line on China that Tibetans are better off now than before are ignoring the most basic need of all humans, autonomy. Remember that individual autonomy is the enemy of dictatorships everywhere, China, America, Russia, Korea. There is no doubt Tibetan autonomy is being suppressed. This suppression will eventually be turned towards the Chinese people themselves. What a revolution that will be!

Good Old Tibet: serfdom and squalor! Perhaps the occupation by China is bad but I would not like to see Tibet return to its old ways.

To Joe St Cloud Minn Surely exchanging anecdotal evidence is a move towards doing something about it. If only to raise awareness, it is a postive move in the right direction

This sounds like what the U.S. has and continues to do to American Indians from their own lands and resources, making them the poorest people on their own lands. Shame, shame, shame!!!!!!!

It's no different than when the U. S government slaughtered most of the native american population. They are doing the same in the middle east, africa, and china. Instead of giving them blankets infected with smallpox we are giving them AIDS and taking their land for our own gain. Too bad most americans are fat, dumb, and happy, or else we wouldn't have the world that we have.

Helas,one forgets the hundred of thousands refugees in New Delhi and all over the world .Helas what the Chinese have done to the Thibetains they have done to us all =We have lost incredible medicinal knowledge ,lost immense medical librairies,trampled incredible amount of Art and artifacts ..the Thibetains and us are the losers. Mr Wong is a selfless dedicated explorer and his books are priceless in the information they bring to us and NASA.

Who cares what's on top of Tibetan plateau yaks or monks, what's underneath it? Is there oil? Even if there's, we would be better off having less people on top of the plateau, otherwise think of the massive humanitarian burden that we have to take care. Now that we caused 4 million Iraqi's to shit else where, think of us causing similar number of Tibetans shit elsewhere. Soon enough we would make the whole world shitty place except for a few places where there's oil!

If Tibet had oil, the US would be there freeing them from their religious persecution.

Lama San, If you believe life is much better now in Tibet, then why did you come to America ?? don't answer.. it is simple one word " F R E E D O M ". This very word will send shivers down the spine of every dictatorship in the world. Did you experience the true meaning of Freedom from foreign occupation. How can you be so ignorant to say People in Tibet have freedom to practice religion when communist philosophy is to equate religion to poison. The real Buddhist religion is the Buddha's teaching and not communist version or interpertation of Buddhism. Please open your eyes, ears, heart and mind and then speak. If every Tibetan living in Tibet under the Chinese occupation are happy then be it so. please do not interpret you happiness to all people of Tibet.

LAma-San is not tibetan at all....LAma-san is posing as a tibetan so that he can speak with authority about something he knows nothing about in reality. LAma-san is probably some neo-con Chinese American

We should boycott the 2008 China Olympics to show the world we don't stand for this kind of aggression. Free Tibet! Free the whales too while you at it! Boycott Japan!

the chinese are doing nothing different than what the U.S. did to my ancestors when the forced the Cherokee on the trail of tears. . . they didn't care then and they don't care now. if you think they do, go to the Oglala Souix reservation and you will see what real poverty and desperation is. as someone else mentioned, if there were oil in the mix, we'd be the first one there.

How wonderful that we live in a free society, where we can all express our own views and ideas. Please note that no-one who lives under the Chinese Communist regime can even read this, let alone comment. There is no freedom of expression or religion for ANYONE who lives under this regime, Chinese, Tibetan, Uigher etc etc.

There are over 200 ethic minorities in china, why are Tibetans getting all the attention. This is yet another political platform for America to criticize china's internal politics. If you go to Tibet, yes there are loss of culture, but that loss of culture is occuring everywhere. The Han chinese are losing our culture to the americans as we become more westernised, but no one is talking about that. Hence the term is incorrectly used; it's more a merging of cultures between Han chinese and the ethic chinese. China certainly do not ethically eradicate a whole culture of people, like what happened in America with the indians, or the aborigines in australia or the blacks in south africa, or the jews in Nazi german. Even the Dali lama said that China will bring wealth and prosperity to Tibet, which will eventually be good for tibet and it's people. Remember that the issue of an independent tibet will never be a serious issue, as it has never been truely independent. And same with the issue with Taiwan, it has always been and always will be a part of china, and Taiwan has never denied it. Just read it's constitution. In the end, it's essentially about politics, and don't believe everything you read, the world is neither as good or as bad as the media makes it out to be. If you want to fight injustice in the world, go to Africa, South America, the Middle East go and fix your own country first before criticising China, a country that has never started any wars in recent memory.

During the 60s I tried to tell the Left that China thugs were murdering the people whose only crime was feeding the Lamas,but Mao(who also killed my comrades in Nam) could do no wrong... The Left was wrong then, and still is, now!

China is the same as the Saudis and the UAE, propagating their way of life as better while brutalizing those around them that can't protect themselves. The sad part is that the US gov. lets it happen in the name of capitalism. This country, founded on ideals of freedom never before seen in any country, continues to ignore a country unless there is a dollar sign attached. The Israel of today wouldn't exist even though the Jews and Hebrews asked for it if there hadn't been something in it for the government. So, until there is, the Tibetans and other ethnic groups will continue to go the way of the Mayans, etc.

To Sharan - You are not well informed about the history of Andhra Pradesh. This is the second time I post this information hopefully MSNBC will let it through. Andhra Pradesh is a disputed territory. The following is from the wikipedia - "In 1914, representatives of China, Tibet and Britain negotiated a treaty in India: the Simla Convention. During the convention, the British tried to divide Tibet into Inner and Outer Tibet. When negotiations broke down over the specific boundary between Inner and Outer, the British demanded instead to advance their line of control, enabling them to annex 90,000 square kilometers of traditional Tibetan territory in southern Tibet, which corresponds to most of the modern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh, while recognizing Chinese suzerainty over Tibet. Tibetan representatives secretly signed under British pressure; however, the representative of China's central government declared that the secretive annexation of territory was not acceptable. The boundary established in the convention, the McMahon Line, was considered by the British and later the independent Indian government to be the boundary; however, the Chinese view since then has been that since China, which was sovereign over Tibet, did not sign the treaty, the treaty was meaningless, and the annexation and control of southern Tibet Arunachal Pradesh by India is illegal." Today the population of people from india residing in Arunachal Pradesh is almost twice as much of the people in Tibet.

they need to open casinos

We can pontificate all we want BUT unless we stop supporting China by buying their goods, we are going to continue to support their raping of Tibet, Africa and South America! Not that the UK and US have not done the same! So - Go Figure !?

At one point or another all of our ancestors were peasants/nomads/hunter-gatherers. I find it somewhat strange that we who enjoy the benefits of industrialization/urbanization, would seek to force others to maintain this subsistence based survival. In the name of what? So that we can take pretty pictures of some colorful clothing and a couple of cow-like beasts, and say "wow, isn't that special, those happy looking herders lead the same lives of their great great great great grandparents." I'm sorry but don't we all want our kids to be better off than we are? Isn't that a basic premise of our species? Would you really want to go back to spending every waking moment babysitting a bunch of cows in order to keep something with pointy teeth from consuming your food source? It's not quite so romantic when you are the one poking the cow in the a** with a stick for the rest of your natural life, which incidentally would be comparatively short, but no doubt rich with culture... Now add in the knowledge that you kids will be no better off than you were. You spend 12 hours a day in that field so that your kids can too. Do you think that would make you happy or sad? It would make me very sad, which is why I don't plan on going back to Greece to be a fisherman living in a romantic straw hut like my grandfather. I don't advocate forcing people to live one way or another, but there's a reason we don't go back to our cultural roots. I also don't think it's right to let a culture stay in the stone age so that we can look over the fence and marvel at it. Ideally we would let them make their own choice, BUT it has never been that way in history. Economic/social conquest is how our ancestors lost their roots. Why would it be any different today?

Tibet must be liberated. Great many people were killed by the aggressor. Human rights were trampled. A religion was offended. The artifacts destroyed. The territories annexed. The liberty of the whole nation is being oppressed. The universal rationality and spirituality demands the restoration of justice. The humanitarian concerns demand moral and material support of those people brutally oppressed by morally defective and shallow-minded population of the neighboring country. The Chinese occupation was not provoked by peaceful Tibetans. This should never be tolerated by any country or any individual with conscience. The talks of corrupted politicians or bad policies of the US is irrelevant here. If we see something bad in our country lets try to fix it. But even though those should not blind us in respect to other iniquities on the planet. People of good will should protest all evils detected and fight them by all means available. Peaceful ways are preferable of course. Diplomacy, education, economic isolation of the aggressor should be our first resources. Also we should understand our real capabilities and act accordingly. But we should never tolerate injustice, especially such obvious instanciation of it as in Tibet.

This is a reply to the email from "Lama-san, Arlington". I don't know when you were last in Tibet, but when I was there in 1999, the people in Lhasa and other areas could not worship or even speak about the Dalai Lama...nor have a photo of him anywhere. I wanted to give someone a photo, but was told they could be jailed...so did not. From what I have read, this is still the case. The new railroad is the beginning of the end for Tibetan culture as is was...now there will be a few token monastaries and monks for the tourists. The old buildings and homes are being torn down every day for high rise apartments. It is sad, as the people I came in contact with are lovely, and spiritual. Sandra F., New Jersey.

1) in economics, there is a saying that if there are two kinds of unequal currency then the expensive one slowly will be disappear. 2) there is a research saying that many of currently existing languages will be disappear soon and english will become stronger. 3) all people buy only cheap/good product and thus other products becomes out of market. -----------------what i wanna make sense here that, no matter what it is, even a culture or a country cannot remain exist if that culture does not have quality to exist. (i apologize for my poor english). how long time tibet will be protected. today if we want to protect it from china, tomorrow india will conquer it. day after tomorrow russis will take it. next iran will take it. next any other stronger nation will take it. if tibetans cannot protect themsleves, if they dont have the ability to change in order to exist in this world, by natures's most common rule ( as i mention on top) they eventually be disapper. no one can do nothing.

Hi Long, I’m also a Buddhist (minus those ritualistic part that can be spiritually damaging) and I too do not agree with the superstitious Tibetan culture that mixes politics with misinterpreted, disguised, non-Buddhistic practices. In fact, I see some similarities (but not quite the extend of magnitude) between the older Tibetan environment as compare to the Dark Ages of Europe (after the fall of the Roman empire), where power hungry, inhuman, practices reared it’s urgly heads… severely hindering social, scientific, eonomic & governmental developments through presecution of “witches”, suppression of Scientist (Copenicus / Galileo), feudalism, invasions, often in the name of Religion etc. As it took the Renaissaunce to trigger the reform of Europe, we need changes too in Tibet. While I am totally against oppression by any government and recognize that the Chinese had done so to Tibet, I also want to bring up to our fellow human beings, especially those from America, that it was their fore fathers who had taken the vast land from the natives of America, who had exploited millions of African slaves ‘brought’ across the Atlantic Ocean, who had occupied Hawaii and annex into the United States in 1898, who had actually sent its army & attacked China in 1900! Many Chinese national treasures stolen from Yiheyan (Summer Palace) of Beijing are yet to be returned… All I am saying is that we need to see things with wider perspective. If you truly want to help the people of Tibet, work with the Chinese people. The Chinese had made terrible mistakes, just like the earlier European & American powers had. But don’t expect them to leave, Tibet will be in chaos. Can you imagine America returning Hawaii now? To who? To the decendents of Queen Liliuokalani? Americans can’t even leave Iraq. Finally, please read American Theocracy by Kevin Phillips. Americans should start helping themselves first. It is within your Circle of Influence as Stephen Covey had highlighted in his “7 Habit” book I meant no mallace, only good. America is still the best hope for the world provided it stays true to its Constitutions. America had strayed and its time to return to its path.

I am so touched by the overwhelming humanity shown by American people and other civilized free people, that I almost want to become an Iraqi.

I had planned to visit Tibet several years ago but after reading several books by people who were in love with Tibet and its native culture, I changed my mind. There is nothing beautiful or exotic about a tradition of illiteracy, crippling superstition and a lack of interest in modern science. Who can blame any foreign government for trying to change such a backwards country bordering their own?

Prayer is the deciding factor. You all have the power to move the heart of God. Get a map of the world or a globe and put your hands on it as a point of contact. It's just a matter of time before the bamboo curtain falls. Evil destroys its own resources over time. Pray for China. Pray for Tibet's oppressed people. Watch and see.

Free Tibet, what hypocracy. What about free the Southern States Of America. Illegaly occupied and no autonomy. No right of independence either after nearly million people slaughtered to extinguish Confederate independance.

China invaded Tibet for three reasons: It was defensless; no army, no military alliances. Second, it is a great buffer between China and India. Mao was, for good reason, terrified of a land war with the second most populous nation. Third, it was a land grab - territory, timber, minerals. The bottom line is that it was probably the most craven act in modern military history. China couldn't even defend itself against tiny Japan, but as soon as the US defeated Japan and liberated China, Mao crawled out from under his bed and suddenly got brave.

Did anyone ever bother to consider that China taking over Tibet was a good thing? Think about it. 50 years ago, who really knew anything about Tibet or its people? Now Tibetans are out in the world. Their history, religion, and customs are no longer hidden away in their mountain kingdom. The Tibetans aren't any less Tibetan. Tibet is still there. But now they're known to the rest of the world, and as such they can never cease to be. And the rest of the world is richer for the knowledge.

No LAND IS OCCUPIED TO GIVE PROGRESS TO IT. WHETHER ITS IRAQ, TIBET OR ANY. ITS US ATTACKED IRAQ THE ONE ONLY MUSLIM COUNTRY WHERE OTHERS ARE GIVEN RESPECT IS DOWN!! AND DOES IRAQIS GET PEACE BY FALL OF SADDAM. MORE PEOPLE ARE KILLED THAN THE SADDAMs TIME. MORE DAMAGE IS MADE THAN SADDAMs TIME.. SO CALLED KINDNESS OF FREE COUNTRY... DEAR AMERICAN BROTHERS PLEASE READ CHOMSKY. LOOK AROUND OUTSIDE YOUR WINDOWS.. ITS ALL OIL... THEN YOU WILL UNDERSTAND HOW ARE YOU GETTING FOOLED.. WHILE EDUCATION IS SAID TO MAKE PEOPLE MORE SENSIBLE.. Y THE MAJORITY IS BECOMING SELFISH AND NARROW MINDED WAS THIS THE EDUCATION MEANT TO DO?

To the victor go the spoils! I am sorry the fact is that China won and they lost (I know same with Indians is the US) so China will do what is in its nations best self interest. The Tibetan people will have to accommodate a new life style and transition to new realities. As far as looking at the US to help them out I am sorry our plate is full and I think what they are undergoing is not even close to several countries in Africa that do have oil. Is it sad, yes but instead of saying we should help preserve their current life style maybe we should help them move on to a new life style. I do not see any country fighting a war over Tibet with China, the result of such a war would result potentially in mankind’s destruction. So before giving your heart filled guidance please take a moment and look at the big picture and the global reality.

The Communist Chinese (I refer to them that way because I reside in Taiwan, among the Democratic Chinese) are only attempting to emulate the "Good Ol' USA" where the dollar can buy exemption from criminal offenses, political influence (read: maintenance of a wealthy upper class), and oppression of people who actually work for a living. Look at the example that Americans have set for the world to follow, and you will understand why the Communist Chinese see it as being critical to their survival to accumulate and abuse natural resources, commit genocide, and exchange natural beauty for profitable pollution. "Sean" in Torrington, you have hit the nail on the head. The USA only supports the ability to earn profits fo the upper class, and will do so using military force in the abscence of provocation (e.g. Iraq). I suppose we can attribute this to "human nature". After all, when has man ever been truly benevolent, kindhearted, and respectful of other cultures? Here's the equation: PRC = USA - 150 years. Watch them catch up quickly; they have 5 times as many citizens to utilize in the effort to "modernize", "progress", and "conquer the world".

This is in response to comments from Sharan, Alameda, California. It is not the south Indian state ofAndhra Pradesh that China claims, instead its the North Eastern State of Arunachal Pradesh which borders China, that they claim is theirs. In fact the Chinese Ambassador to India claimed that, instantly creating an uproar and public demanding why he was still being tolerated by India. 'Pradesh' in Hindi means a State.

food for thought, my friend in china will not be able to even read this story. also do not forget the seven tibetens that were shoot while trying to cross the boarder. No media, no freedom, no life.

Lama-san sounds like chinese gov't propagandist to me. As do some others here. Man, are they tricky. They will do and say anything to achieve their expansionist/economic objectives. Kind of like how they arrested that 6 yr old panchan lama and replaced him with a chinese puppet lama.

Although Lama-san, as a Tibetan, may merit more attention to his views than some others who have only been tourists in Tibet and not residents, I believe that persons like Kris bring out specific facts that offer greater credibility on this matter. I'm far removed from the Tibetan issue but by using some bits of history elsewhere that I'm privy to, I believe I can offer a good opinion. I had family members "coaxed" to change their last name because of the wrong ethnicity in the aftermath of WWI when Mussolini soon claimed to the League of Nations that people in Istria and other Southern Slavic areas of former Austria were really Italians and therefore the region was really part of a greater Italy. That they may have spoken a form of Italian thanks to Austrian educational tolerance and economic practicalities wasn't relevant. Then, too, I currently live in Puerto Rico where I have roots and where various outsiders would have others believe people here are deprived of their freedom and should be given their independence, despite over 95% of the many native-born residents, with or without their TVs and cars and their overwhelming use of Spanish in mind, consistently rejecting the independence party at the polls. The alternatives offered throughout much of the "free" Caribbean only further support their choice. Only good analyses rate merit. It's obvious China has had unusually big eyes when it comes to its neighbors and, like a stalking cat, it may divert its eyes occasionally but continues moving forward. Tibet historically wasn't part of China according to the Asian history I've read. True, the USA has not been perfect during its historical acquisition of territories but keeping quiet on Tibet shouldn't be, and is not, a modern American trait. It may be in totalitarian China despite current international free trade (of increasingly contaminated goods).

Tibet was not a paradise before the Chinese took over in the 1950s and it is not a paradise now. If given the opportunity (don't hold your breath) the Tibetans would vote for autonomy or independence. Why? Because most peoples prefer to be locally governed, something that Tibet cannot presently do, except in minor ways. The authority still flows from Beijing. And when the world saw what was happening, nothing was done. The Korean conflict seemed closer to home for most other governments. But that said, Tibetan culture is probably more resilient than it is given credit for being. In time they may have an opportunity to show the resilience and the strength of their traditional culture.

I'm not sure where to start . . . First, to Jim from DC - thank you for trying to inject facts to an issue that is obviously way too emotional for most of these posters. There are several other posters that understand the complexity of the issues in Tibet, and their insightful words are also appreciated. Unfotunately, most of the posters here are basing their opinions (like most Americans and all too many Westerners in general) on old propaganda and a mistaken belief that Mainland China today is still Maoist - and nothing could be further from the truth. Why do I feel the right to add to this discussion? I have built a business in Chengdu, capital of the SiChuan region. I have been a part of sister-city exchanges and active in the Chengdu community for over 3 years now. I have seen FIRST HAND the changes in Mainland China that are evident each time I return (I commute regularly between my home here in TN and Chengdu). China is a country that is changing almost daily, both structurally and politically. If you haven't re-visited Mainland China in the last 2 years, you won't recognize where you did visit, I assure you. I have been fortunate to travel throughout many areas of Mainland China and talk with many people, from government officials, retired military, plain ordinary Chinese people and even our own government personel at our embassy. When I travel, I travel freely with my friends and employees. There have been no retrictions (many people in the West still think you cannot travel in China without some sort of government supervision - this is simply not correct). I'm not going to try to "tell you like it is," instead I'm going to plead with you to visit this QUICKLY changing country. China is going to be a MAJOR player in the 21st century, the same way Europe was in the 19th, and America was in the 20th. You can either recognize this, or deny (reseach the web for news accounts from Europe at the beginning of the 20th century - the critics of America's "rise" then sound almost the same as critics of China today). Visit Guan'an - hometown of Deng Xao Ping, the Chinese leader that set China on its current course back in the 1970's. In the Chinese government-run museum there, you can read in both Chinese and English about the "mistakes" of the cultural revolution. Mao will always be revered by the Chinese because he UNIFIED CHINA, but modern Mainland China also understands and openly discusses the abuses and killings that went on during Mao's rule (kinda reminds me how we revere many US Presidents during the western expansion of the 1800's). Someone else correctly touched on the history of Tibet, and if anyone thinks Tibet is this nice, calm religious haven, you are sorely mistaken. A Chinese friend of mine had opened a restaurant, in the capital city no less, only to close it in less than a year. The Reason? - local thugs regualarly came into his restaurant demanding protection money. Keep in mind, this is a Chinese citizen and the thugs were Tibetan. There is so much more I want to say, but this is alreasy too long as it is. I will close by simply saying I am no communist sympathizer. I was named "Young Republican of the Year" for TN in my younger days, and I proudly attended 2 Republican National Conventions as an alternate delegate from Tennessee. I also served as the Chair of the Registry of Election Finance for TN (the state ethics commission), a governor's appointment. I say these things not to brag, but to give perspective that I had nothing but expectations of disliking Mainland China when I first visted there over 3 years ago. My eyes are now open, and I greatly wish the same for the rest of my fellow Americans. The stakes are too high to not learn the facts of Mainland China today.

Heh, no one seem to remember the part where the CIA raised on Army in Tibet and launched attacks in chinese settlements... Or the part America abandoned the same said armies to the wolves when China counterattacked.

One last point - while in China, I make regualar use of the internet, including regualar visits to MSN.com (my homepage is set there) and even ESPN to get sports updates. The connection I have is the same as my employees and friends. The Chinese do filter their internet (they seems especially concerned about porn and gambling), but while hardly totaly open, it is also incorrect so say there is "no media, no freedom, no life."

to JT_IB, STL, MO : yep i agree u made a great point . short/sweet and so very true.

Peole joke about WalMart - This country seems to into getting cheap stuff from China to care about Tibet, or about he Chinese gov't messing up the environment, or political freedoms for more people there, or even the condition of the food China exports to the US. A lot of $$$ shouldn't stop the US from caring about those things... the US can always get stuff elsewhere. heck maybe even make some here again.

I'm surprised to see so many opinions on a country that hasn't really existed in 50 years. First I wanted to point out that Tibetans don't worship the Dali Lama, or any other "God". The Dali Lama is simply a spritual leader, much like the Pope is to Catholics. Lama-san who claims to be from Tibet is mis-educated about their religion and many other parts of tibetan life. I guess what really surprises me however, is that people could possibly consider the PRC (people's reb. of China) to have had a positive impact on the Tibetan's way of life. Arther Sinc above, seems to believe that the US's own Civil war is somehow comparable to the way the PRC crushed the peaceful people of Tibet. The "Union" fought the South to free the slaves, and provide democracy to all people, which is all I would hope could happen for Tibet. The major difference is that the South didn't care about having a different religion, or even a different political view, they quite simply were greedy plantation owners who brainwashed the rural folks into believing that one's skin color determines whether or not they deserve freedom. Hypocrisy? Hardly. It's called ignorance.

Hey Larry K Dont bring God into this conversation...were talking about tibet not a fictional character...there's always a religious fanatic that needs to bring religion into everything

Weep for freedom. It is dying everywhere. Like the phoenix it will arise from the ashes.

I just returned from a trip to Llhasa and Tsetang. The Tibetans have freedom of religion, every morning, thousands walk clockwise through Jokhang temple and around Potala palace with their prayer wheels. The Chinese have rebuilt the temples, monasteries, and palaces. Did you know that schooling is not free in Tibet? According to our tibetan tour guide, it costs $100RMB/mo. to send kids to school in Lhasa, and a little less in the smaller towns? Only the people that are well off have a chance to goto school. I asked about the money that the Chinese gov't gives to Tibet for education. He said that the Tibetan gov't is using the money in other ways. It doesn't seem prudent to take the money that should be used for education for other things.

Why is it that countries like China, the USA think that "our way" is the "better for you way"? Dictating to others that they will be better off. We should require all leaders to spend a week in other peoples shoes. It is so much easier to look from the outside in.

Michael McCroskey from Tennessee, thank you for bring some facts to this discussion. People should know the fact before they speak out. Tibet has never been a sovereign country. Both Mainland China and Taiwan claim sovereignty over Tibet. The notion of China invading the country of Tibet is disputed. Secondly we Americans can't just sit here and claim we know what Tibetans want. Maybe they do want plasma TV and SUVs. Maybe they are tired of normad lives and want to settle down in a town. The fact is we know little about Tibetans and their lives. We all know how that turns out trying to inject democracy into Iraq.

This is in response to Ho-Pan O-ren, Hualien, Taiwan. This person has NO truth or facts in his diatribe about the U.S. I have lived here over sixty years and find Rule of Law and Justice to be available to citizens. The U.S. is not perfect but George Washington and the founders started a moral test of character that we are still trying to fulfill. Also, those who say we went to IRAQ for oil are silly, try National Security - just analyze the financial cost.

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